Today. We have Liberal Party Senator Paul Scarr at our studio, who is the Shadow Minister for Immigration, Citizenship and Multicultural Affairs. He’s a Liberal National Party Senator for Queensland. Welcome to SBS Studio, Paul.
Senator Scarr
Great to be with you, Natasha, and great to be with your listeners.
Natasha Kaul
Senator, we have recently witnessed unprecedented anti immigration rallies across Australia, heated national debate over migration levels, and it’s still continuing, and even remarks targeting, you know, migrant communities with the Liberal Party literally at the centre of these discussions and forced to damage control. How do you view the state of the Liberal Party today, after everything we have seen in the last few weeks?
Senator Scarr
From my perspective, the fundamental values of the Liberal Party provide that it doesn’t matter wherever you come from originally, it doesn’t matter your ethnicity, it doesn’t matter your country of origin. It doesn’t matter your gender, your religion. When you come to Australia and you take that citizenship pledge, you are an Australian and you belong in Australia and the Liberal Party has a proud history, going back to the 1960s in terms of dismantling the White Australia Policy and recognizing that we should have a non discriminatory immigration policy, and that is fundamental to our values. So it is fundamental to the discharge of my obligations as Shadow Immigration Minister and Shadow Minister for Citizenship and Multicultural Affairs to stand up for those core values, and in terms of our immigration story as a country, we were a proud migrant country, and our history tells us that our migrants, wherever they come from, from India, from the African continent, this year is the 50th anniversary of the influx of people from Vietnam who’ve made a great contribution. I’ve attended an event this morning with our wonderful Vietnamese Australian Community. Wherever people come from, they make such a wonderful contribution to Australia, and that’s part of the Australian story. So from my perspective, it’s about telling the positives, reinforcing the thankfulness we have for the contribution of the Indian Australian community, who make a wonderful contribution every day, not just through their work and through their businesses, through their technical skills, but also helping Australians in need and I see it every week, grassroots community organisations helping their fellow Australians in need, and that represents the very best of Australia’s values.
Natasha Kaul
I’ll come back to my question again. We saw the Liberal Party in the centre of these discussions and forced into damage control iin certain situations. I was reading one of the opinion pieces by a high profile editor, and he said, looks like the Liberal Party is in a mess. Would you agree?
Senator Scarr
I think we must focus on our base values, our core values, and people need to be very careful when engaging in loose language and loose rhetoric, because it can be very damaging in terms of our relationships with communities, and it can cause distress in the community. So from my perspective, that is the message I give to colleagues. Please know that when you say something, it does have an impact in terms of communities, and also we should bear in mind that our political opponents are waiting for those slip ups when they occur and that will use them for their political benefit as well. So great care is needed in terms of language that’s used in relation these sensitive issues and it applies, I think, more in the immigration space, in the Multicultural Affairs space, than any other aera of politics, because we’re talking about people. We’re talking about people’s sensitivities, sensibilities, and great care is needed. That’s my message. We should be celebrating our immigration stories and the contribution that is made by our wonderful multicultural communities.
Natasha Kaul
Give us a sense about what the mood is like within the party, especially after Jacinta Price’s remarks, which appears to have some impact on the party. Where does it leave the party, the leadership and the Opposition Leader?
Senator Scarr
In relation to Jacinta’s remarks, I think. It needs to be noted that that ultimately, Jacinta stood down from the Shadow Ministry, so is no longer part of the of the Shadow Ministry, and Sussan, as our Opposition Leader, Sussan Ley, took appropriate action in that regard and I think that’s what had to happen, and that’s what did happen in all the circumstances, for the reasons which Sussan outlined in her statement and I think, from my perspective, I would like to see that as closing the chapter on those events, and we now move forward in a positive way. So there were consequences. There were consequences in relation to that.
Natasha Kaul
You’re the Opposition Migration Spokesman, and I’m sure you’re closely scrutinizing all the events that has happened in the last few weeks, the immigration rallies, the debates and everything. What has been your assessment of the situation to migration overall, especially after the numbers have come out. It’s lower than your target, your liberal party’s target, which is 140,000.
Senator Scarr
We took to the last election, policies in relation to the permanent immigration intake, to bring it down from was about 185,000 that was the labor policy, and the policy we took to the last election was to bring that down to 140,000 for two years and then gradually increase it again to 160,000 which was the level under the coalition in our last year of government. So that was the policy we took and it’s important to note the motivation for that policy was primarily in relation to housing and infrastructure constraints. Now what I say in relation to this, and I always say this. This is a question of government policy. It is nothing to do with people who come to this country as migrants. So the fact is, unfortunately, in 2014 we managed to build 219,000 dwellings in this country.Fast forward to 2024, and the number had fallen to 177,000 and that was due to cost pressures, supply chain issues, etc, having that impact on housing supply. So that was the policy we took to the last election. We’re undergoing a policy review process now, and I have carriage of that as the Shadow Immigration Spokesperson. From my perspective, it is absolutely important that the policy we formulate to take to the next election is based on facts, is based on evidence, is considered and is able to reflect the position Australia is in at the time we go to the next election, which will be in another two and a half years. As you’ve noted and as your listeners will be aware, during the covid period, there was a huge drop in net overseas migration. It was in negative terrain. Coming out of covid, there was a huge increase. So the first year out of covid, it was over 500,000, second year, over 400,000. The last data we have, as you mentioned, is down to 315,000 – that is still approximately 100,000 greater than the 15 year average before covid. The 15 year average before covid was about 215,000, so there are still questions there in relation to what is the optimum figure in Australia’s national interests that takes into account all the different visa streams, which are incredibly important, including family, including skills, including our humanitarian visa scheme. What is the right figure moving forward, and how do we engage in the long term planning and analysis at a federal government level. So to be frank, we’re not in a position where we’re having these strained debates, as we’ve been having over the last few months and one of the things I think is needed from the federal government is instead of releasing a permanent migration intake, which was released a few weeks ago with three sentences – that’s all that was released – three sentences is actually providing commentary around it in relation to what was the discussion with each of the states, in relation to their skill shortages, in relation to their infrastructure requirements to actually provide that transparency for the Australian people, because unless you provide that transparency in a way of vacuum forms and people at the extremes of the debate have an opportunity to get a foothold and to put out misinformation and to create concern in the community. I think the way these debates are managed is absolutely critically important and I know because I’m close, very close to the Indian Queensland community, and I’ve had discussions with other communities in other areas across Australia. I know the pain and distress that’s been caused, particularly when that initial pamphlet was released prior to the marches which specifically targeted the Indian community and I was contacted by community members. It was a Monday, parliament was sitting. community members reached out to me. These are friends who I work with on their grassroots community activities, and they reached out and told me how distressed they were. I took the first opportunity in the Senate, actually convinced one of my colleagues to give up their speaking spots in the Senate so I could give a speech in solidarity with our wonderful Indian Australian community and talk about the contribution that’s made and I think that’s what all of our political leaders need to do at these times.
Natasha Kaul
We at SBS Hindi, we did release a short reel of your speech that you made throwing support behind the Indian community when the pamphlet was released, it was very well viewed on our Instagram and social platforms. But then, you know, then Jacinta Price made that remark. What went through your head when she made that comment?
Senator Scarr
That’s a good question. Jacinta made the remark. She then walked it back that afternoon, and then there was some further media, which was done the next day. Respectfully, Jacinta made the comment she’s made, and that is what Jacint said.
Natasha Kaul
But did you speak to her?
Senator Scarr
I did speak to her the next morning and I’ve been on the public record in terms of this, and when I sat down with Jacinta and spoke about it, she actually told me how close she was to the Indian Australian community in Alice Springs when she was deputy mayor and her children have part Indian heritage, and her children had worked for Indian small businesses, and I think she gave a really good speech to Australia Today, one of the major Indian social media outlets in Australia. So I heard all of that, and I think all of that was really important. I have also heard the distress from members of the the Indian community, and how much they wanted to hear an apology.
Natasha Kaul
And still we didn’t hear any apology from her. Did you ask her to apologise?
Senator Scarr
I don’t want to go into personal discussions I have with elected members. I shared what I shared with you because I think it demonstrated Jacinta’s connection with Australians of Indian heritage, but I wanted to put that on the record. People are giving speeches, they’re saying things all the time, but great care is needed, because there can be consequences.
Natasha Kaul
But was she really remorseful about what she said?
Senator Scarr
Well, again, I’d refer you to Jacinta’s words. There’s no doubt in my mind that Jacinta has a high regard for the contribution made by Australians of Indian heritage and I heard that, and I heard that from Jacinta’s heart, but I’ll leave the rest of the commentary to what Jacinta said and how she’s explained it.
Natasha Kaul
I understand you don’t want to divulge the details of your personal conversation, but if I can ask you this way. Did you tell her the damage has been done?
Senator Scarr
Again, I don’t really want to go into the conversations, but I think what we’ve seen from Sussan Ley as Opposition Leader is a concerted effort to engage with the community since the events of of those couple of weeks and I’m actually in Melbourne, we’re having some further meetings today in Melbourne.
Natasha Kaul
What concerns are they raising with you because you are the Shadow Minister for Immigration and Citizenshi. How do you reassure them that they are safe, they are welcome and they really belong here?
Senator Scarr
Let me say what the message is I give to the community when I meet them . First that every Australian who takes that citizenship pledge and becomes an Australian is an Australian full stop and that’s the first poin and you belong. You belong. There’s no question. So that’s the first point to reinforce that. Second point is in relation to the Indian Australian community. I talk about how much the contribution is valued to Australia, and I see it every day, in terms of wonderful businesses, in terms of the values of our Indian community, family values, how much education is valued. I talk about the generosity of spirit in relation to opening up community festivals to the whole community and I talk about and especially emphasise the fact that when there are Australians in need, some of the first people who step up to help are members of our wonderful Indian Australian community. I saw it during the covid 19 pandemic. When I visited a Gurdwara at Eight Mile Plains that was producing meals especially for international students from all over the world who were in need. I saw it from GOPIO, the governing organization of people of Indian origin in Cairns, when that community was hit by floods, and again, they were reaching out to their fellow Queenslanders with food and assistance. I see it when Australia is impacted by bushfire, by floods, whenever that occurs, the Indian Australian community rallies and we need to talk about that, we need to celebrate that. Every opportunity I have in the Senate, I talk about it and put it on the record to thank the community, so reinforcing those points is so critically important. What have I heard from the community over the last few weeks? I’ve heard some terrible stories from the community in relation to how they’ve been impacted. I’ve heard of people going to work the Monday after the marches and having their fellow employee come up to them and say, you know I marched. I’ve heard of mothers having to cancel birthday parties in parks because they’re scared to go to their local park on the day the march occurred, I’ve heard of senior representatives of the community not going to the Queensland Governor’s residence for a reception on the day of the march because they were scared, and that’s unacceptable. That’s not the Australia I know and love, and those stories are heartbreaking. I’ve heard of a lady of Sri Lankan background being approached at a supermarket in a fruit and vegetable section by a woman who asked if she could speak to her and and said to her, gee, maybe you should go back so my children can buy a house and those are the consequences of when the debate becomes intolerant and goes into the extremes and particular groups are targeted or named the way that occurred before the marches. This has consequences and causes great distress, and that needs to be recognized. It’s heartbreaking when I hear those stories, because I know how much our wonderful Indian Australian community belongs and the contribution that’s made, it’s heartbreaking.
Natasha Kaul
How can we fix it? Do you see a future of a migrant community, the Indian community, especially when it comes to representation of these communities within your party?
Senator Scarr
Absolutely I do. In some respects, that’s the engagement by our wonderful Indian Australian community and all political parties, right? I know all the communities I work with, there’s a cross section of views, as you’d expect. Why wouldn’t there be and I think it’s so important that our political parties, especially the parties of government, including my party, that there’s opportunity for candidates from diverse backgrounds to seek pre selection and become candidates and we’ve had some wonderful candidates and Dave Sharma serves in the Senate with me, and he obviously has Indian heritage, and I’ve worked closely with candidates from all sorts of multicultural communities. That is so terribly important. It is so important, and it’s in accordance with the values of my party. I joined my party as a 17 year old. I’ve been a member of the party for, well, I can’t do the math a long time and those are core to my values. Those are core to my values. They’re core to Australia’s values. So it’s really important that we move forward, continue to engage with the community, have the discussions we’re having today – very important and for people in the community to know that their contribution is honored, is celebrated and that the Liberal Party knows our wonderful Indian Australian community is a blessing for our beautiful country, an absolute blessing and I can’t imagine Australia without our Indian Australian community. They’re part of the Australian story, and have been going all the way back to Gallipoli when people of Indian heritage served in the Australian armed services, part of the Australian story and a beautiful chapter in our Australian story.
Natasha Kaul
So when the next election comes, do we see more faces in the Liberal Party from Indian community?
Senator Scarr
We are still two and a half years away from the next election. But how prepared is the party today?
Senator Scarr
Well, I would like to see more multicultural faces from all communities standing as candidates for the Liberal Party. I’d like to see more women candidates standing for the Liberal Party as well. and I think if the Liberal Party is to be successful, as I hope it is at the next election and elections to come, the Liberal Party will need to reflect modern Australia, and Sussan Ley through her leadership, I think is reinforcing that point on a continual basis and it’s a very, very important point. We need to as a party, we need to reflect modern Australia.
Senator Scarr
We’re going through a process and from a political viewpoint, when a party goes into an election, they get smashed, which we were – we were smashed, then a lot of work needs to be done. I say in relation to areas such as Immigration, there is work to be done. It isn’t just a question of someone having a slogan or a sound bite. There is work that’s needed to be done. So for example, if I can just touch on some of the matters which I’m considering. How do we make sure that all the skills we have in Australia, in our multicultural communities, are actually being utilised at the moment? So in terms of people’s professional experience being recognised, their overseas work experience being recognised. To give you one example, in the construction industry, I had a meeting with members of the construction industry yesterday. It’s estimated there are 18,000 new Australians, people in Australia with relevant construction skills who aren’t being utilised in the construction industry because their skills aren’t being recognised. How do we turn that around? 44% of people who’ve come to Australia are in jobs under their skill level. So how do we maximise the skills that are there in that 44% to give them the opportunity to contribute at their skill level and enhance their skills? That’s an important issue. In terms of our temporary visa program, where are we most successful in terms of people coming to the country on skills visas and making a positive contribution? How do we accentuate the success? How do we address where there are weaknesses? There’s a lot of work and analysis to be done in that regard. How do we deal with the family reunion program and a lot of your listeners (and I have this feedback), will talk about the length of time it takes to get partner visas, etc. So how do we address that so that people are united with their family members, so they can contribute to the country as a family unit? That is an issue which needs to be addressed and then there’s the the issue around student visas and temporary work visas, working holiday visas, but you have to do the work in relation to each of these visa categories before you can actually put out the policy and say – this is the answer. There’s a lot of hard work that is required to be done, and that means engaging with stakeholders amd that means engaging with groups representing all the different communities in Australia to get their views with respect to what they’re seeing. What are the frustrations? Frustrations with English language testing, the cost of English language testing, for example and I know there are members of our multicultural communities who have spent a lot of money trying to get their English language test passed, and now that’s proving a barrier in terms of their skills being fully utilised. Let me give you one example of something which I find unacceptable from my perspective. Someone can come to this country from, say, Kenya, where they’ve been educated in English from primary school, and they’ve been educated in English in primary school, in high school, they’ve gone to university in Kenya, for example, they’ve gone to university in in London, and I’m thinking a particular example here. They do a PhD at, say, the University of Queensland, get the Deans Commendation for their PhD, and then they’re asked to do an English test. This is nonsensical. There are a whole range of issues that need to be considered, and we as an Opposition need to utilise the time to hold the government to account, which is our obligation as a opposition, and then develop the suite of policies to take to the next election and I say to all of your listeners, please contact me. Be part of that process. Tell me what your thoughts are. Tell me what your experiences are and quite often, when I go to multicultural events, I’ll talk to people who are doctors or accountants or engineers, and I’ll say, tell me what your experience was in terms of getting your qualifications recognised. What was the journey? How can we make this easier? Because we’ve got to utilise all the talent that’s in this country. We’ve got to utilise all the talent that’s in this country. That is absolutely vital, from my perspective.
Natasha Kaul
I’m really glad you brought up that example of English testing. Let me ask you this. If you were in power. So for example, if you come into power and you’ll be the Immigration Minister. Will we see the abolition of English test for these PhD students and how will you tackle this?
Senator Scarr
That is certainly something I want to look at, right? That is certainly something I want to look at and it’s an example which I carry with me and provide in interviews. So that is certainly something we need to look at as a country, because from my perspective, it’s unacceptable that someone has been educated in English their whole life, has higher degrees, master’s degrees from overseas, and then is forced to sit an English test. I mean, this is nonsensical. So why is this the case? It’s absurd. In one sense, it’s laughable, but on the other side, it’s hurtful. It’s hurtful.
Natasha Kaul
They’re spending 1000s of dollars.
Senator Scarr
Then there’s the economic cost which is just ridiculous. There is work to be done in that space. Another example I can give you, in terms of English language, where it is a barrier and when we talk about multiculturalism, I think one of the focuses has to be removing barriers for people of different backgrounds to achieve their full potential in the country and at one end, you’ve got the the esteemed academics, professionals, who it’s ridiculous to to impose those requirements. At the other end of the spectrum, you’ve got people who’ve come to Australia from very dire humanitarian circumstances, and they maybe haven’t had the benefit of a lot of formal education at all and I see cases where the provision of English Language Services is not actually working for a lot of members of those communities and what I see at a grassroots level, is what does work, perhaps better, is grassroots community organisations where you’ve got the people teaching English are actually also conversant in the language of the country of origin, and there’s a safe space for people to come together and access to other community services, and they’re getting great results and great outcomes where the more formal English language services are maybe not achieving those outcomes. So one of the things I’m passionate about across the board is empowering grassroots, multicultural community organisations who are doing great work in the community and getting great outcomes. I think that’s something I’m keenly interested in to make sure that we we provide an opportunity to people to get those English language skills, which they need to successfully enter the workforce.
Natasha Kaul
Senator, tell us your definition of the right migration level that balances the needs of Australia’s economy, multiculturalism, or even the environment.
Senator Scarr
The 15 years before covid hit, we had the average net overseas migration level was about 215,000. We then had this huge whipsaw effect where net overseas migration fell into negative terrain, and then we had these huge influxes. Over 500,000, then over 400,000, then over 300,000. Work has been done in the past in terms of looking at what the right number is from a productivity level in terms of the Australian economy and that work which needs to be updated, because this was done In the context of Australia having a smaller population, and that work, I think, supported that long term average we had before covid At the same time, I’d say this – when you’re talking about net overseas migration, you’re talking about arrivals and departures. In terms of arrivals, you’ve got a number of streams. There’s the family stream and from my perspective, if someone has a partner, they fall in love overseas, they have a partner overseas, they’re a family, and they want their partner to come to Australia, then there has to be an avenue for that to to occur and their children to come to Australia, right? So it’s a bit different from the other elements of the program, because I think if just like as a family wants to leave Australia, they leave Australia. A family wants to be united in Australia. They should be united in Australia. But I still think there are issues there in terms of waiting times, etc. So the family, to some extent, it’s demand driven, if I can put it that way, right, in terms of both arrivals and departures, you then have the skills space, which really depends upon the shortages of skills we have in Australia at a particular time. It depends upon where those skill shortages are, whether there might be particular skill shortages in Queensland, but they’re not in Victoria, and there has to be analysis taking into account the circumstances at the time. So in Australia at the moment, there’s a huge shortage of construction skills, right? So from my perspective, there should be a focus on how we get those skills into Australia to, in part, be the solution of the housing supply crisis, but also huge infrastructure projects occurring. So there needs to be analysis of that Skills Program. What’s working well, what’s working less well. How do we accentuate what’s working well? You then have the humanitarian stream, and I believe strongly that Australia, this year, we will welcome our one millionth refugee into Australia and I was with the Vietnamese community early earlier today, and they’re a great example of a community that’s come to Australia on humanitarian visas and has made a great contribution. So that humanitarian stream always has to be part, in my view, of Australia’s immigration program, and that has fluctuated over the years. There’s a particular issue at the moment in terms of people who’ve claimed humanitarian visa status onshore, have failed, and how those people leave the country in an orderly fashion, that’s a policy challenge that needs to be considered. So you’ve got the skills visas, you’ve got the humanitarian, you’ve got the family visa stream and then you’ve got some of the more temporary visas, temporary skill visas, temporary student visas as well. Then you’ve got New Zealanders, right? We have a huge population of New Zealanders in our country. I think it’s over 700,000 who have rights to come to Australia, just as Australians have rights to go to New Zealand. Then you have working holiday visas, all of this. So you’ve got so many moving parts as part of this portfolio, I think you’ve got to be really cautious when someone legitimately says, well, what’s the number? Well, it depends. It depends on the circumstances at the time. It depends on what the feedback is in terms of skill shortages, it depends upon demand. It depends on so many factors. Whatever it is, it has to be a figure that’s in our national interest. It has to be a figure that takes into account all the prevailing circumstances at the time, and it has to take into account a recognition that migrants have made such a wonderful contribution to our country throughout our history. So it’s a very long answer I’ve given you, but I think it’s a complicated question. I would say, go back, have a look at that average before Covid nd the numbers are trending down towards that average.
Natasha Kaul
Are you happy with the current numbers that have come out?
Senator Scarr
In therms of net overseas migration, which, again, because it’s arrivals and departures, it’s probably the ultimate goal. I think should have a range, rather than a hard number, probably because of the things which are outside of control, but it’s trending down towards that pre covid figure. Then in terms of the permanent immigration intake, you’ve got the family stream, which is about 30% of the intake, which is, you know that 52,000 it’s hard to see it being any less than that, to be frank and then the skills area is where it’s really driven by, what are the skill shortages in Australia at a particular time? What we do need and what I’ve been consistent in saying is, when a number is put out, like the permanent migration intake number is put out, there should be maximum transparency and explanation of how the number was derived and why the number is what it is. I think that’s terribly important. So we will be looking at the trends as we go into the next federal election, which, as you’ve noted, is two and a half years away. We will be looking at what the number is coming down to, consulting with industry, etc, in terms of skill shortages, talking to universities about the skill student visa programs, engaging in the in the hard work of actually getting the data and the evidence and that’s from my perspective, that’s so terribly important as being the Shadow Minister with responsibility in relation this portfolio area.
Natasha Kaul
Student Visa Fees has been recently increased. It’s come from $750 to $1600 and now it’s 2$000. Do you think it’s high and if you come to power, do we see a rollback in international student fees?
Senator Scarr
Well, I think we need to look at that. Johnno Duniam, who’s Shadow Minister for Education, which includes considering our student education Visa Program, which is a great contribution to Australia’s economy and everyone has to remember this – 50 billion dollars of revenue, plus the source of of labor for our hospitality industry and tour, etc. So it’s important we put this in context that people understand that. But it’s an issue we need to look at, and we need to consider Australia’s reputation in the long term when we look at these issues as well, and something I think also needs to be at front of mind is making sure that we treat our students and their families with utmost respect. Because many families who’ve sent their children to Australia as international students have made a lot of sacrifices to fund that, and I firmly believe that we need to treat those families and the sacrifices they’ve made with absolute respect and make sure when those students are in Australia, they get the maximum positive experience from their time in Australia, because this is going to be the human bridge. Moving forward, some of those students will make a home in Australia. They’ll provide skills to the Australian community, the benefit of their skills and what they’ve learned. Others will go back to their country of origin, India or wherever, but they will be the human bridge between Australia and their country of origin for decades to come. So it’s important we also have a long term perspective in relation to this.
Natasha Kaul
Last question, Senator, what is your message to our Indian community?
Senator Scarr
My message to our wonderful Indian Australian community is you are a true blessing for Australia. You belong in Australia. There is a chapter in Australia’s history, the Indian Australian chapter. You are part of our Australian story. You are valued, you are honored and I look forward to as a Senator, I look forward to future Senators, the children of parents and grandparents listening today, sitting in the Australian Senate, just as now we have my my dear colleague, Senator Dave Sharma, sitting in the Australian Senate and making a contribution.
Natasha Kaul
Thank you so much, and thank you for giving us this opportunity to talk to you and have a chat about certain important issues that we discussed.
Senator Scarr
Well, let’s catch up in 12 months or six months and have another chat. I’d like to maintain the dialog, and my door is open. If anyone has any feedback, please reach out to me.
Natasha Kaul
Thank you so much Senator.
Senator Scarr
Thank you.
