Now it’s only like day one in the job, but Queensland Senator Paul Scarr is joining me in the studio. I’ve known Paul Scarr forever. He used to, and to be honest, he used to stand in sun and pouring rain and hand out how to vote cards for me and in an earlier incarnation. But look, you’ve just been announced, Paul Scarr, as the Shadow Minister for Immigration, Shadow Minister for Citizenship and Multicultural Affairs. Congratulations on that. But I just simply say you bring a strong legal background your involvement with the various culturally diverse communities around Queensland in particular, I think sets you up to do this job properly. But surely, you’d agree there’s something not quite right with our immigration system. So, you’re the shadow minister. What are you going to do about it?
Senator Scarr:
Thanks, Gary, and thanks for having me on the show. And as I’ve been reflecting on this new role over the last few days, I have actually thought about the role you previously played in government. I know you consider these issues very deeply and thoughtfully, and I think I’ll be looking to engage with previous ministers and people have held these roles to get their views with respect to the current state of play, when we reflect that in the first two years of the Labor government, there was net overseas migration of approximately 1 million people. I think that gives you cause for deep reflection, and we have to work out what our national interests are in terms of what you refer to as the nation building role of migration and decisions need to be made in the national interest. And in your earlier commentary, I think you really hit on one of the conundrums. On the one hand, we have a desperate shortage in housing supply, and I see it where my office is located at Springfield, one of the fastest growing parts of Queensland, and so many first home buyers trying to get their foot in the property market, the prices keep going up. It’s desperately difficult. On the other hand, we don’t have enough skilled trades people to build the houses we need, and we’re looking overseas to bring skilled trades people to build those houses. And I think where we need to move is a longer-term vision in terms of the nation building nature of our migration program. And I think that is terribly important. We’ve got to get past the short termism and have a longer-term vision of the people who we want to come to our country to help build our nation into the future.
Senator Scarr:
We also have an aging population that we need to consider as well. And one of the things new migrants bring is, youth and vigor and we need to consider the always consider the national long-term interests of Australia. This is such an important portfolio, and I really feel the responsibility of this portfolio, because it’s, it’s, it’s important for not just the current generation, not just for us Gary, but for our children and the Australia they grow up in, and the opportunities they’ll have in terms of buying their first home, being able to live in connected cities where they’re not spending two hours in traffic jams, etc., etc. t’s such an important portfolio.
Gary Hardgrave:
And Paul Scarr, the other thing that was done back in the day when Philip Ruddock was the immigration minister, and I was next to him as the Minister for Citizenship and Multicultural Affairs, there was regular engagement with the community that was hosting. In other words, he would go around and run town hall meetings, little symposiums, where he would say to people who weren’t migrants themselves, certainly not in their lifetime, but were people who were long term Australians, what do you want from your migration system?
Gary Hardgrave:
And then they’d grill him and ask him, all you know, we you bring in these people, you bring in that people. How did that happen? He would explain root and branch how the whole migration system operated, and the room would suddenly say, Oh, now we get it. Now we understand. So I think that, I think you can actually trust people to work out what’s good and what’s in for Australia and learn from them as well. Would you do things like that?
Senator Scarr:
Oh, absolutely. Gary, I think that is incredibly important. And the opposition leader, Susan Lee, has said, we need to listen, as a coalition opposition, we need to listen to the Australian people, and the area of immigration policy is a great example of that. We need to go out and listen to the Australian people.
Senator Scarr:
But also give them the information they need to evaluate and understand the competing interests in this space. And as I said, that example, in terms of a lack of trades people in our country to build the houses we need is a is a perfect example of a conundrum, right?
Gary Hardgrave:
Yeah. Well, look one of your constituents, Anthony, you’re on pillage of Senator Nate. He said, can you ask the Senator why step one can’t be to just simply cut migration in half and be very clear about the skills and the abilities the people coming in? I mean, it’s a reasonable point. It’s a straightforward point. Is it that simple?
Senator Scarr:
I don’t think it is that simple, and I really respect the point that’s been made. We did take to the last election a policy to have an immediate decrease in our permanent migration intake by 25%
Senator Scarr:
And some were saying to Peter Dutton at the time, make it half. Cut it in half. I’ve heard those views. I think it really does need some considered, constructive reflection, considering the competing priorities and taking that long term view Gary that you, that you spoke about. And I think in order to do that, we need to go out and speak to the Australian people about what their expectations are.
Gary Hardgrave:
And we need to talk to people in the cities, but also the bush, because that’s the other issue. We’ve got regional centers, which are crying out for population, for workers, etc, and we need to consider their needs and requirements as well. I remember going to Roma once, and people in Roma, the local city council, said to me, Minister, can we have a visa for garbage truck drivers? I said, What do you mean? They said, Well, they’re all going off and working in the mines, you know. So in other words, there is a shortage of labor, not just trade skills, but labor in a lot of regional centers. And of course, when somebody who is trade trained leaves a town, then that’s sort of the end of that industry, and a lot of other people go as well. So, I think the number used to be six or seven unskilled jobs were created for every skilled job. So it is nation building. We’ve got to get that sale point known and understood, particularly in the department.
Senator Scarr:
And the other thing I’d say, just generally about migration policy, it’s got to be a social compact. We’ve got to get buy in from the Australian people. And it’s so important that we get that buy in and that credibility and integrity in our system that is so desperately important. And we also have to make sure the administrative processes actually work. And I’ve certainly been involved in cases since becoming a senator, when you’re helping people with applications, legitimate applications. You go into this bureaucratic maze it takes months and months and months for sometimes the most simple of things to be resolved.
Senator Scarr:
So we need to make the system more efficient, more effective, to deliver outcomes for the Australian people.
Gary Hardgrave:
Yeah, well, you’ve got the job. I had something like it once. But to my mind, it was always a test, a very simple test, a binary test, is it in Australia’s best interest? This person is here? If it’s not, then they go. If it is, let them stay. And as you know, it was always under 45 with a skill or a trade that we needed in Australia. If they could speak English, then it was pretty easy pathway to get here. Others, you know, may find difficulty in qualifying and but the point is, if it’s in Australia’s interests, let them stay. If it’s not, they should go, but they don’t want to go.
Senator Scarr:
Well, Gary, I reflect, as you talk about Australia’s interests, I reflect that this year’s the 50th anniversary of people from the Old Republic of Vietnam seeking refuge in Australia. And I look back over those 50 years and look at the contribution that that Australian Vietnamese community, our Queensland Vietnamese community, has made to Australia. Very successful, extraordinarily successful, successful in terms of their own family lives, successful in terms of educating their children, producing doctors, engineers, professors. Successful in terms of running small businesses, their work ethics, their values as Australians. And from my perspective, I think that’s an outstanding example of how the migration system working properly can be nation building in a positive way consistent with Australian values.
Gary Hardgrave:
So let’s bottom line it. What is it? 1.8 million over the next couple of years? That’s just too big a shunt to our population growth too it’s just too much too quickly. I think we have to pause it.
Senator Scarr
Well, we need to. We need to reflect, we need to look at the figures, and we need to get updated data as well. Because I spoke about that 1 million, 1 million people coming in the first two years of the of the labor government’s term. I mean, that was unprecedented, Gary. I mean, that was an extraordinary because it wasn’t even like that after the second World War.
Senator Scarr
Absolutely.
Senator Scarr:
I mean, it was hundreds of 1000s more than it had ever been in a two year period before. So we need to deeply reflect on those figures, but then, but then engage in that constructive, considered process, considering what is in the long term interests of the Australian people.
Gary Hardgrave:
Okay, but I’m going to end up getting a yes or no from you at some stage. I don’t expect it on day one, but seriously, we are in a dire situation, as passionate as I am about it being a nation building exercise, unless we run a proper filter, and that includes a large filter to deal with the big the big chunks of problems, and then a fine filter to deal with the detail we are running. We are running a real risk in this country of creating a real dislocation in our community. We’re going to get people angrier at migrants, which is a real worry, can’t get kids started in a house, which is another real worry, unable to build the things infrastructure, as well as houses that we need, which is an enormous worry. Australians are going to start to start to resent the migration system if we’re not careful.
Senator Scarr:
I think there’s a profound obligation upon people like myself in public life, especially holding this portfolio, to consider all of those issues very carefully. I do not want to see Australia in that place. We were a country with avery, very generous spirit. We’ve welcomed people to this country from all over the world, and those people have been part of the project we call Australia, and have made great contributions.
Senator Scarr:
But I think it’s incumbent upon every single politician serving in our Australian Parliament to listen to the concerns of the Australian people and respond positively based on on the facts, based on consideration of the long term interests of the country, and bring the Australian people into that discussion. And I look forward to being part of that process.
Gary Hardgrave:
Well, let’s face it, you’ve had the job for a day. And so I can’t get an emphatic yes or no from you today, but I’m going to pursue it, Paul, as long as I’ve known you, I you know I’ve known you a long time. I’m just going to say to you right now, right up front that I think people understand you need to get the information, but we don’t need to have some major reviews. We need to actually have, as you say, the information and then some decisions taken. Now, long way to the next federal election. So you haven’t got to set that policy now, but I think it’s reasonable to have a conversation that says, As you rightly say, What’s in Australia’s best interest. How does our migration system work?
Senator Scarr :
Absolutely Gary, and I make an offer to you. I want to keep this conversation going with you and your listeners, I want to maintain this conversation as I settle in the portfolio and hear the views of everyday Australians.
Gary Hardgrave:
Okay, well, then we’ll do that. We’ll make it a date and get you to come in and have a conversation. Maybe take some calls from people as you get the additional experience on top of what you’ve already got, because I know I got to say, you’ve been doing a terrific job getting around all of the culturally diverse communities, helping people who don’t necessarily feel connected to Australia, giving them some connection, particularly with some of the more vulnerable groups. And kudos to you for that. But we’re going to need that experience to then be accounted for, if you like, and we can do it on this program.
Senator Scarr:
Absolutely, mate. Happy to be part of that project.
Gary Hardgrave:
All right, Senator Paul Scarr, he’s the Shadow Minister for Immigration, and of course, looking after our CItizenship and Multicultural Affairs as well. He’s not the minister, he’s the shadow minister. He’s going to put the pressure on. Is that still Tony Burke, I don’t know who’s the minister.
Senator Scarr:
Tony Burke, yeah.
Gary Hardgrave:
He’s the guy that perfected, like, you know, the mass Mooney wedding kind of citizenship ceremonies before the election to get people on the roll. I mean, Paul Scarr, that’d be a good place to start, I reckon.
Senator Scarr:
Well, as you, as you know, Gary, one of the greatest honors in terms of being elected member of parliament is to preside at a citizenship ceremony, and he shook my 20,000 hands. I think one day I take those responsibilities very, very seriously.
Gary Hardgrave:
All right, okay. Well, good answers. The legal training helps, but we’ll pursue you further. Paul Scarr, good to see you. Congratulations again and re elected as well as the Senator for Queensland. So congratulations.
Senator Scarr:
Yeah, thanks. Thanks, Gary, and thank you for the job you do, also in terms of making sure the viewpoints of Queenslanders are heard.
Gary Hardgrave:
Yeah, there’s a view a few out there, and you’ll hear a few more in in return visits.
Senator Scarr:
So looking forward to it mate.
Gary Hardgrave:
Nice to see you today.
