Joining me from Brisbane is Shadow Immigration Minister Paul Scarr. Paul, thanks for your time. How do you feel about Andrew Hastie pulling the pin from the Shadow Ministry? Has he got any sort of argument that he thinks he should have a say in the Coalition’s Immigration Policy?
Senator Scarr
Well, Andrew, ultimately, that’s a decision for Andrew Hastie, and he’s made his decision. From my perspective, in relation to this portfolio, I think it touches upon so many areas of government. It touches on our financial position, it touches on foreign affairs. It touches on trade in some circumstances, agriculture, in terms of workforce. So I’m going to be looking to work collaboratively with the entire shadow ministry, and also look to make sure that all of my colleagues coming from all over Australia have an opportunity to have their input.
Andrew Clennell
Well, there you go. Do you think you and Andrew Hastie had any differences when it comes to immigration policy?
Senator Scarr
I’m not sure Andrew, to be honest, the issues which I’m concerned about are the fact that we still have a net overseas migration rate of 316,000 as at the last figures we have for the year ending 31 March 2025, and that’s still 100,000 above the 10 year average pre covid pandemic. It’s also substantially above what the long term forecast is used by Treasury of 235,000. At the same time, we’ve got to consider issues like skill shortages, housing supply and workforce for our agriculture sector, our aged care sector. So it’s a complicated matter, but I expect that we need to work towards bringing that figure down to a sustainable level in the long term.
Andrew Clennell
Will you be setting a figure then in terms of net migration that you want to see and/or permanent migration in the next few months?
Senator Scarr
We’ll certainly be working with the backbench policy team and with, as I said, all of my shadow ministers in terms of working out what the right calibration is for the policy settings. Permanent Migration is one where about 60% of people who get permanent visas are actually onshore, and that is wholly within the control of government. Net overseas migration is a bit more difficult to analyse, because there are areas which are outside of the control of government, and a good example of that is Trans Tasman population movement. So if the labour market is soft in New Zealand, a lot of people exercise their right to come to Australia. So we’ll be looking at both figures and coming up with what we think is a sustainable level and also we’ll be looking at the process. I think this is an important point, Andrew. When Tony Burke released the permanent migration intake just recently, it was three sentences, 100 words, no explanation, no transparency.
Andrew Clennell
When you said in your speech on Friday that immigration policy should be done on facts, not emotion, what did you mean by that?
Senator Scarr
I think it’s really important Andrew and I wanted to send a message with respect to how I will conduct myself in this portfolio, that I’ll be focusing on the facts and the evidence, not the emotion. It’s so important that not only do we have an immigration policy that’s in our national interest, but that the debate is also conducted in a way that is in our national interest and I’ve come to this view, and I feel very strongly about it, after talking to various people in our multicultural communities about the impact of some of the people and some of the extreme things they were saying in the lead up to those marches, in particular targeting the Indian community, and that had a huge impact on people in our Indian community and so I think when we discuss these issues, we have to be mindful of that.
Andrew Clennell
Well, are you talking about Jacinta Price comments as well there?
Senator Scarr
In particular, I’m talking about the pamphlets that were released prior to those marches, which specifically targeted the Indian community, and I actually spoke in the Senate on the day I became aware of those pamphlets, and speaking to people in the community afterwards, I learned more about the impact it did have on them. So I think all of us, every single one of us, and in that speech I gave last Friday, I was talking about the approach I will take needs to be measured, it needs to be considered, it needs to be based on the facts and coming up with a policy in the national interest.
Andrew Clennell
It does seem a slightly different approach to that which Andrew Hastie and maybe Jacinta Price might take, though, doesn’t it?
Senator Scarr
Well, I think that’s for other people to comment upon Andrew, such as yourself. I’m just focused on how I’m approaching the job and sending a strong message with respect to how I believe the job should be approached. As I said, the debate should be measured, it should be considered, should be based on the facts and evidence. I think it’s really important.
Andrew Clennell
Well, we’ve long held a non- discriminatory immigration policy. But is there anything about some of the anti-semitism that’s occurred, or any of the concerns around social cohesion, which makes you think perhaps we should be targeting immigrants more from certain countries than others?
Senator Scarr
I think it’s absolutely vital that we continue our non discriminatory immigration policy. At the same time, I think anyone who wants to come to this country needs to share our values, and that means respecting the rights and liberties and freedoms of other people, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of being able to live in our society safely and securely and every single person who comes to this country, whether or not they’re looking to come permanently or temporarily, should share those values. So I believe that extremely strongly.
Andrew Clennell
Well, how do you ensure that before they come if you know what I mean!
Senator Scarr
Well, I think appropriate background checks need to be taken. We do have processes in terms of people becoming citizens. In terms of sitting the citizenship test, etc, but it’s something we always have to be mindful of. We want people coming to this country that share our values and I should say, Andrew, this is a cornerstone of multiculturalism. It means wherever you come from, you are not discriminated against. You have freedom of speech, freedom of religion. You believe in the rule of law, and you believe in our democratic system, that is, for me, the overarching principle of multiculturalism.
Andrew Clennell
What do you think of the government’s handling of this ISIS brides issue? Do you think they should have refused to get those citizens passports? What more could they have done?
Senator Scarr
Well, what more they could have done was actually communicate with the Australian people, and I actually asked questions of Senator Wong in the Senate, as you know, a few months ago and we asked questions, we probed this issue. We got stone-walled and then the information appears that there has been some movement, and there’s no way that people can come in that situation to Australia without some sort of assistance from the regulatory authorities. So there should have been more transparency and openness with the Australian people, and there should have been more information provided. I think, Andrew.
Andrew Clennell
What do you make of what’s occurring today in terms of the release of the hostages? What are your hopes for peace going forward?
Senator Scarr
Andrew, I think, like all people of goodwill, we want to see peace in the long term. It has been absolutely horrific. What has happened in Israel and Gaza since 7 October. Those initial terrorist attacks on 7 October were absolutely horrific, and we want to see peace, long term, sustainable peace. I think that is the hope and prayer of all people of goodwill.
Andrew Clennell
Do you think such peace, if it occurs, will be matched by an improvement in social cohesion here?
Senator Scarr
I really hope so, Andrew, I really, really do hope so. I think this is hopefully that there will be a step change in terms of the situation, the atmosphere in Australia and I think that is really important and I hope the people can start working together and doing whatever we can to amend those issues that have occurred over the last few years.
Andrew Clennell
Lidia Thorpe has made these inflammatory comments at a Pro Palestinian rally yesterday about setting fire to Parliament House. Now she’s released a statement today saying it was a figure of speech. What do you make of all that?
Senator Scarr
Well, it’s not a very good figure of speech, is it? We were just talking Andrew about the speech I gave last week. I think it is so important that when people are engaging in these debates, when emotions are high, that they use measured speech and Lidia’s Lidia. But really, you’re crossing a line when you make the sort of comment that she made.
Andrew Clennell
Paul Scarr, thanks for your time.
Senator Scarr
Thanks very much. Andrew.
