Late last week, the Shadow Immigration and Multicultural Affairs Minister Paul Scarr gave a pointed speech, rebuking the rhetoric of liberal backbencher Andrew Hastie and stressing the need for a measured and considered debate on migration levels. Yesterday, Tony Burke, who’s the government’s Home Affairs Minister, said the Opposition was engaging in a debate on migration without facts, by saying there was a need to cut the number without saying where that cut should actually come from. The Shadow Minister Paul Scarr himself joins me now. Welcome to the program.
Senator Scarr
Hello, PK. Good to be with you and your viewers.
Patricia Karvelas
Lovely to speak to you again. Home Affairs Minister Tony Burke yesterday said there was no ideal number for Australia’s immigration intake, that it needed to be balanced with housing supply and the needs of the workforce, our economy. Isn’t that a fair assessment?
Senator Scarr
I’m not sure it is PK, and one of the concerns I raised in the speech last week is that there’s an absence of long term planning and the example I gave was that Treasury, the Centre for Population, use a long term net overseas migration figure of 235,000. Now they’re using that figure beyond the next three years, for decades up to 2065 and from my perspective, there needs to be long term planning. There needs to be a case put with respect to the costs and benefits of different immigration intakes, and that story, that narrative, needs to include the Australian people, so that we have a continuing social license for our migration policy.
Patricia Karvelas
So is there a magic number? Is that what you’re suggesting?
Senator Scarr
Well, what I’m suggesting is that there needs to be analysis, there needs to be long term planning, and we’re not seeing that from the current government. So it’s not really good enough for Tony Burke to say yesterday, as he did, that it’s up to the Coalition to give a number, when, on the basis of Treasury’s own forecast, they’re using 235,000 net overseas migration for decades to come. So I think the government needs to do the work. They need to engage in the medium term planning and the long term planning, and bring the Australian people along with the narrative.
Patricia Karvelas
So let me just take you to that number. Is that number too high in your view?
Senator Scarr
Well, I think we need to do the work to see what the number should be. So in many respects, the 235,000 number is used on the basis of what occurred in the 15 years before the pandemic and then there’s certain assumptions which are made. But it doesn’t seem very wise to me to use the same number for a number of decades moving forward. I think the work needs to be done. I think there needs to be short term planning, medium term planning and long term planning.
Patricia Karvelas
So where does the Opposition fit into all of that though? Don’t you also have to do the work that you talk about? I don’t know if you’ve lost me. I hope not, but isn’t it always [cut off]
Senator Scarr
So PK, you just need to bear with me. [technical issues]
Patricia Karvelas
I’ve got Paul Scarr on the program. He’s the Shadow Immigration Spokesperson for the Coalition, and we’re talking about Immigration levels. Now, of course, immigration has been a hot button issue in this country. We saw several weeks ago, those protests on the streets, and there is some concerns in some parts of the community about our immigration levels. Yesterday, the Home Affairs Minister Tony Burke delivered a speech at the National Press Club, addressing these issues, talking about and criticizing the Coalition for the stance it’s been taking on immigration levels and specifically talking about a number. I think I’ve got you back, Paul Scarr, but really what I was trying to ask you, so I’ll give it a red hot go again. Do you also need to do the work? You talk about the government doing the work. There is work to be done that has to be developed across the board, right?
Senator Scarr
Oh, absolutely. PK, I agree with that, absolutely and we are doing that work at the moment and that work involves looking at the different cohorts in our immigration program, considering the numbers in each cohort, considering things such as the pressure on housing supply, which has been demonstrated in the last report that was issued for the 2025 state of the housing market, considering things like skill shortages, our agricultural sector, our aged care sector, all of that needs to be considered and when we do produce a number, when we do produce a policy, it needs to be defensible. So we need to ask the questions which you are legitimately asking.
Patricia Karvelas
Okay, so when you say that, you think it’s important that the Coalition actually delivers a number? Makes a specific promise for a number?
Senator Scarr
Well, I think it’s important that, when we’re talking about migration levels, whether it’s a number or it’s a range. We need to break that number down with respect to the different cohorts and provide the explanation as to how we determined that number and we also need to explain how that number takes into a consideration things like housing supply and infrastructure. But the other point I’m making PK is there needs to be long term planning across the federal government, the state governments and local government. During the last year, the federal government said it was going to engage in a multi year planning approach with respect to the permanent migration intake, and it just dropped that – it dropped that – we just got a three sentence announcement of the permanent migration intake for 2025 with no explanation as to why they dropped the multi year planning.
Patricia Karvelas
I just want to move you to a speech that you gave last week, and you very specifically rebutted Andrew Hastie’s quotation of Enoch Powell. Why did you think it was important to do that?
Senator Scarr
The speech I gave last week articulated my approach to this portfolio, and certainly I believe it’s extremely important we have the debate with respect to immigration, but also that the debate is conducted in a way that is in the national interest, and that means it should be considered, it should be measured, it should be based on the facts and evidence.
Patricia Karvelas
And are you concerned that Andrew Hastie is not having this debate in a measured way?
Senator Scarr
The point I made was a general point and the general point I made did refer to Enoch Powell’s famous, or infamous rivers of blood speech, and I quoted the response to that from Quinton Hogg, who’s someone who’s inspired me over a long period of time and he made the point when he was Shadow Home Affairs Secretary in a conservative opposition, but it was so important that parties of government do not seek to inflame emotions when conducting these debates and that’s the point I made last week.
Patricia Karvelas
And is it your fear that that’s what people like Andrew Hastie are doing?
Senator Scarr
Well, let me give the example of the pamphlets that were distributed before those March for Australia, rallies which specifically referred to the Indian community in Australia, and I know from moving around the country, talking to members of the Indian community, the distress that those pamphlets caused and some of the issues that have arisen from those pamphlets. So everyone, everyone needs to be mindful of of the issues arising in relation to this debate, and make sure we conduct it in a considered and measured way.
Patricia Karvelas
I’m sorry to labor the point, but I really do want to find out if you are concerned that there are some members of your own party that don’t want to have this in a measured way.
Senator Scarr
As I said, I put in the speech, my approach with respect to conducting.. [cut off]
Patricia Karvelas
You know you do that, right? If there’s a contrast with respect, Paul Scarr.
Senator Scarr
Well, that’s that’s really up to commentators like yourself, PK, to make comment with respect to that [cut off]
Patricia Karvelas
I’m going to commentate because you called me one. I don’t know if I am. I’m actually a journalist.
Senator Scarr
Okay, sorry.
Patricia Karvelas
No. But with respect, there is a contrast going on at the moment. and there are some who think that you should be very much campaigning on issues of immigration much harder, like Andrew Hastie. They think that there are votes to be extracted here. What’s your response to that?
Senator Scarr
Well, you can campaign hard on the issue without seeking to inflame emotions. That is possible and one of the points I made in the speech was, when you look at our current rate of net overseas migration, it’s materially still over the long term average before covid in the treasury’s own forecasts and I spoke about all of the issues in relation to housing supply, but also those issues have to be balanced with skill shortages, especially in our regional communities, and the need for the agricultural sector and tourism sector to get the workers they need. Our aged care sector, for example, as well. So I think the way we conduct this debate is extremely important, and that is one of the points I emphasized last week.
Patricia Karvelas
Paul Scarr, thank you so much for joining us this afternoon.
Senator Scarr
Thanks, PK.
