Tonight on the Nightline. We’re joined by Senator Paul Scarr, Liberal National Senator for Queensland and Shadow Minister for Immigration, Citizenship and Multicultural Affairs. Well, there’s a lot happening on the national and international stage. Labor’s Talk Fest in Canberra, the Gaza Conflict, Tensions in our relationship with Israel and the Prime Minister’s performance on the world stage. We’re going to unpack what it all means for Australia, our economy, our security, and most importantly, you, Senator, Welcome.
Senator Scarr
Hi Cheralyn. Good to be with you and your listeners again. My favorite time of the week.
Cheralyn Darcey
Excellent. It is a busy, busy week. So let’s get into it. Let’s unpack some of this stuff. You could probably help us understand it. The first one this labor economic round table. It is doing the rounds itself. Labor is calling it a chance to chart a way forward. You’ve called it a choreographed talk fest. Why do you believe it won’t deliver for Australians?
Senator Scarr
One of the key concerns we had was that there was the leakage of a treasury document that basically outlined what the results of the productivity roundtable discussions would be, and that was actually leaked before the roundtable occurred. So that does raise questions as to whether or not this is a meaningful discussion, notwithstanding the fact a lot of the stakeholders, no doubt, including the Shadow Treasurer, are appearing in good faith and trying to be as constructive as possible. But whenever you hear things like the outcomes have already been drafted and have already been presented behind closed doors, that does raise questions. So that is a concern. Another concern is whether or not the government, when you compare the policies that’s actually introduced, as opposed to its stated motives for the productivity round table, whether or not it actually has the political will to do the things that need to be done in order to turn productivity around. Productivity is key to raising people’s living standards. And the previous president of the Productivity Commission, Gary Banks, recently said that Australia’s increasing living standards from the middle of last century to 2016 were driven by productivity gains. We were creating more goods, providing more services, with less inputted labor, right? And that’s what drives living standards to increase. But then it all started to stagnate at 2016 and we’re seeing the results of that. So these are serious issues. I really hope some productive things come out of it. And I think the fact we’re having the discussion in the public domain is really important in its own right.
Cheralyn Darcey
Productivity has gone backwards. What do you think needs to change to turn that around?
Senator Scarr
We’ve got a big problem in this country with over regulation, and I saw that in my previous career, I worked in the mining industry, and one of my jobs was often to go around the world and look at different jurisdictions, look at different countries, and see if those are countries in which you’d invest in. And one of the main issues you’d look at is the time it would take between having a business idea and the amount of time it would take to go through all of those regulatory processes, all those approval processes, and actually get the consent to actually do what you want to do. Productivity Commission gave an example for a new cafe to open in Brisbane, it would have to go through 31 regulatory steps. Now that’s just to produce a flat white or a long black, or whatever it is, right? And some scones, right? So you’ve got to ask yourself, why have we made things so complicated for ourselves here? Why?
Cheralyn Darcey
Yeah, I can’t even imagine. If it’s 31 sort of hoops you’ve got to jump through to make a Cappuccino. I can’t imagine what it would be if you wanted to invest and create a larger company. It must be mind boggling. It would take teams of people to get it started.
Senator Scarr
And it has. It’s taken decades for some projects to go through the regulatory approval process. And if you can go somewhere else, if you can take your $1 billion of capital and you can invest it in a country where you can get those approvals in, say, 24 months, as opposed to 10 years, where are you going to go? You’re going to go where you can get the approvals more quickly and actually start generating income so so that’s the that’s the issue we have to face, I think as a country, because we’re making ourselves uncompetitive, and that’s just not fair to our children and grandchildren.
Cheralyn Darcey
100%. Look, circling back to the round table. I do have a listener question that came through to us last night, and it’s from Chris, who lives in Ryde in Sydney, and he cannot understand. I don’t know you’re not the person to answer this, but maybe you’ve got a little bit of insight. He can’t understand why this economic round table has been done behind closed doors. He feels that, why can’t it be streamed on television? And he was wondering that if the Coalition was in the position, would you be open to having something like this streamed and available for the public to watch and to see what was happening?
Senator Scarr
I think that’s a tremendous idea. I actually think that’s a tremendous idea, and I’ll certainly raise that when I’m back in Canberra next week. I think we should be seeing the discussion that’s occurring behind closed doors. Why? Because this is an issue that affects all of us. Yes, it’s an issue that affects all of us. So I want to see the debate. And I’m sure Chris from Ryde, he wants to see it. So I want to see what the what the unions are saying, What business is saying, what the different government representatives are saying. I want to see what my friend and colleague, Ted O’Brien, saying as Shadow Treasurer, and how Jim Chalmers is responding.And this transparency is so important in order to take everyone, all of the Australian people, on the journey. So, you know, I think, I think there’s quite a bit of merit in in terms of what Chris has suggested there.
Cheralyn Darcey
Jumping to housing, home construction has dropped sharply under Labor. What’s driving that collapse? Do you think, and how do you see it affecting younger Australians that are trying to buy their first home at the moment?
Senator Scarr
I think this is one of the biggest issues facing Australia at the moment. It may well be the biggest issue, and my heart goes out to those young Australians looking to buy their first home, and even older Australians who, for whatever reason, got out of the housing market and they’re trying to come back into the housing market before they retire. This is one of the biggest issues. And I think there are a range of issues that have had an impact in this regard. I think one of them, again, is regulation. So I’m looking out my window of my office here in Springfield, which is in one of the fastest growing areas of Queensland, there is vacant land which could be built on tomorrow, but it’s caught up in regulatory approval processes, and in some cases, those regulatory approval processes have taken years.
Senator Scarr
Bcause I keep hearing from my listeners all the time that they keep saying, Oh, the reason that there’s not enough housing is because of Immigration. I hear it every single night. But is this the other side of the coin here?
Senator Scarr
So there’s two sides of the coin, right? There’s the demand side, and then there’s the supply side. And the supply side is telling us we’re not building as many houses and dwellings as we used to, and that is really, really disturbing. And as I say so, we’ve got the regulatory issues, supply chain issues, so costs have gone up. And costs have actually, in some cases, gone up dramatically, and that’s put pressure on building and construction companies. We don’t have enough skilled workers in the construction space, because, remember, you’ve got demands on those skilled workers in both residential housing, but also in public infrastructure projects, the highways, the schools, the hospitals, etc, some of the changes the industrial relations settings, I think, have been very negative in this regard. So the Labor Government abolished the Australian Building Construction Commission, the ABCC, and they were basically the cop on the beat in terms of making sure our building sites were operating as they should from the industrial relations perspective. And with the abolition of the ABCC, it all got out of whack, and the CFMEU Construction Division got too much power. And there are all sorts of issues going on there, which added, it’s estimated 30% to the cost to build an apartment building or major piece of infrastructure. So you’ve got this whole range of issues which have really come together to put us in the position we’re in. And to be frank, it’s going to require a lot of work between the federal government, state governments and local governments to actually address this, but we’ve got to address it. We’ve got to address it. We can’t tolerate a situation in which young Australians don’t think it’s going to be possible for them in the future to own their own home. We can’t tolerate that situation. Every Australian who works hard raising a family should have the opportunity to buy their own home. That is part of the Australian dream. And I think there’s a real moral obligation on all of us in politics, in government, to do everything we possibly can to help people realize that dream.
Cheralyn Darcey
Let’s head overseas, Senator. Israel and Gaza, the cancelation of Israel. The MP, Simcha Rothman Visa has caused a major diplomatic storm. Do you believe it was a mistake? And what does it mean for the Australia Israel relationship?
Senator Scarr
Well, we’re not in a good place at the moment in terms of the Australia Israel relationship. And I just want to call out positively the Executive Council of Australian Jewry, actually wrote a letter to both the Prime Minister of Israel and another letter to the Prime Minister of Australia, which was basically to each of them, calling for basically, and I’ll quote the paragraph because I was really impressed by the letter. This is what they say. So this is our Australian Jewish Community, the peak body representing our Australian Jewish Community. This deterioration in the diplomatic relations between two countries we love is causing us nothing but pain and anguish, and we will not suffer in silence. We’re now calling on both you and Prime Minister Albanese. So this was a letter written to both the Prime Minister Israel and the Prime Minister of Australia and your spokespeople to address the policy differences between the two governments in the usual way, through diplomacy rather than public posturing. So I think that’s a very strong message. And I was very impressed when I read that letter that was put out by the Australian Executive Council of Australian Jewry, it is a major thing to not award a visa to someone who’s serving in parliament in an overseas democracy, as in, as is the case, with respect to the fellow who’s been denied his visa in this case. And one could reasonably expect, if you were going to take such a drastic action, there might be repercussions, and it appears there have been in this case. So it’s not a very satisfactory state of affairs. And I think everyone should be working collaboratively together to get the relationship back on a level playing field.
Cheralyn Darcey
Noting that Hamas is still holding hostages. A lot of people ring up and feel that we’re a bit helpless. What role can Australia realistically play in pushing for their release and also ensuring that aid reaches civilians without being intercepted by Hamas. What part really has Australia got to play in this?
Senator Scarr
I think it is hard. There are more powerful players, if I can put it that way, who have more influence than us, certainly, when our relationship with Israel deteriorates as it has, especially over the course of last few weeks, I think that diminishes Australia’s ability to influence advocate in relation to the policies of Israel, and that’s of concern, and also the fact we’ve gone down a path which the United States has not gone down and has been critical of, that also diminishes our ability to be influential in terms of the policies of the United States. And then you have a number of major local, regional players in the area, which obviously are quite powerful and have quite a deal of influence. So I think it is a fair observation that Australia has less influence in relation to these matters than other international stakeholders. And I think that’s a reasonable assessment that’s being made. Our voice should still be heard. Our voice should still be heard, and we need to make sure, through international forums, etc, we do the best we can to get these hostages released and for there to be enduring peace, and that, I think, is what everyone wants to see, an enduring, peaceful solution. So we’re not back in this place during our lifetime. It’s just been a terrible, terrible conflict, and it’s just heartbreaking every time you see families. I’m sure your listeners share this. Every time you see families who are waiting for their loved ones to be returned, waiting for those hostages being held in the tunnels to be returned. I can’t imagine what it’s like to be in that position. As much as I try, I struggle to imagine what it’s like and and we hate to see mothers and fathers out there trying to find food to feed their children, their hungry children, and we’ve seen images along those lines as well. So it’s a very, very difficult situation. And obviously, people of good faith want to see it come to an end, and for there to be an enduring an enduring peace.
Cheralyn Darcey
Senator, I’m hearing from my listeners that they’re worried about our global standing and also our security. You’ve criticized the Prime Minister’s lack of engagement with the US. President, what are the consequences of that absence from the world stage, Senator?
Senator Scarr
I think it’s hard to actually calculate, but we know there has to be consequences. So we now, I don’t know how many days it’s up to. It’s over 280 days since President Trump won the last election, and we still haven’t had a face to face meeting between Prime Minister Albanese and President Trump. And I think the reality is that in terms of forging a strong relationship, raising those issues, in relation to AUKUS, which is incredibly important in terms of Australia securing those nuclear powered submarines which are important for our defense capacity, in terms of addressing some of the tariff decisions, including on our steel and aluminum, where other countries appear to have obtained better deals than Australia, those face to face meetings between leaders, that’s where I think you get the breakthroughs. And we haven’t had one of those face to face meetings. In fact, this week, President Trump met the Managing Director of BHP and the Managing Director of Rio Tinto. Two major companies with operations in Australia. And I was scratching my head thinking they’ve got in to see President Trump before our own Prime Minister. So this really isn’t an acceptable state of affairs, and that meeting really needs to occur as quickly as possible.
Cheralyn Darcey
How concerned are you then that Australia has been lumped in with higher US Tariffs on steel and aluminum, while other nations have secured exemptions already.
Senator Scarr
Well, it is a concern. It is a concern. It’s a real concern. There’s also concerns with respect to Pharmaceuticals, and also concerns with respect to other metals, like copper. Australia is a copper producer, so it is a grave concern. We are a close ally of the United States, and one would hope, and one would reasonably expect, that in terms of tariff deals, Australia should be at the front of the queue in terms of getting the most preferential status, because we’re a close ally to the United States. But it appears at the moment, we’re simply not getting the trade outcomes that other countries are getting in terms of our relationship with the United States. And I think it’s critically important that there’s that face to face meeting between President Trump and Prime Minister Albanese.
Cheralyn Darcey
So why do you think it is that we’re not front and center anymore? It feels we really are left out in the cold, and it’s a place that I don’t think Australia has ever been before.
Senator Scarr
The longer it goes, the more concerning it gets. After a few months, you think, Okay, well, people have got their own itineraries. The President of the United States is an extraordinarily busy individual, and as is our Prime Minister, and there can be logistics issues, etc, but when you get to that stage where the President of the United States is meeting some of the senior executives of our biggest companies and still hasn’t met our Prime Minister, that’s deeply concerning. That really is deeply concerning. And I think the Prime Minister, the Foreign Affairs Minister Penny Wong, need to do everything they possibly can to bring about that meeting now, as quickly as possible. The longer it goes, the more we’re left to have conversations like this. Why is it taking so long? So we need to address it, so we’re we’re not speculating and pondering as to why it’s the case. We need to actually do everything we can to bring about that meeting.
Cheralyn Darcey
Which brings us then to AUKUS. It’s the acronym we all get bandied around all the time. But we all know what AUKUS means when it comes to the United States. It It’s central to our national security. Do you believe the government, then, is at risk of undermining it?
Senator Scarr
Well, I I don’t believe the government wants to. And I think there’s strong bipartisan support for AUKUS, because we need that best technology in the world to defend ourselves as part of our defense capability, and nuclear powered submarines just provide such a strategic advantage. So I think there’s strong bipartisan support for AUKUS, as there should be, but we know the United States is undertaking a review in relation to their own defense requirements in the context of AUKUS, and that means their own defense requirements in relation to nuclear powered submarines, and they’ve got their own construction constraints. So the sooner we can have that face to face meeting where hopefully President Trump signifies in a face to face meeting on the record, we’re going full steam ahead with AUKUS. No problem. This is the future. I think the better for all concerned.
Cheralyn Darcey
Yeah, oh, look, it’s better for my listeners. I can tell you that they’re a tiny snapshot of the nation, but they’re always worried about national security. I can tell you it comes up every day AUKUS comes up, and national security and the worry about that.
Senator Scarr
It’s the most important role of of the federal government, securing the securing the defense of our nation. That’s that’s the number one priority. And although I should also say in this context, our defence spending at the moment is just a tick above 2%, we need to get that up to 3% of GDP. Because at the moment, especially with the capital costs of AUKUS, we need to get that defence spending up so we can continue to provide the financial support for our wonderful Air Force and for our Army, in addition to our Navy, when we’ve got those additional costs flowing from acquiring those nuclear powered submarines, which are absolutely crucial for our national defence. So very intelligent listeners, Cheralyn, they are right to be concerned in relation to defence, and it’s right to be a focus.
Cheralyn Darcey
In the news this week as well. The Ukraine. Peace talks are ongoing. What must Australia and the international community do, Senator to ensure Ukraine’s sovereignty is respected throughout all of this?
Senator Scarr
We want to see peace in the Ukraine. The Russia invaded the Ukraine. It didn’t respect its sovereign borders, and that’s unacceptable in the world. It’s completely unacceptable. So now we want to see a resolution of that awful conflict. And I’ve met people who’ve come from Ukraine on humanitarian visas, and I’ve been deeply moved by their stories, the impact on their lives. People have literally lost their houses and loved ones, and they’ve suffered devastating consequences. And the people of Ukraine, our Ukrainian community, really supports the fact that Australia has been providing as much support as it can to Ukraine in these difficult times. But all of us, I think, want to see a resolution of this conflict, and hopefully the discussions which the US President is having with the Russian President and also the Ukrainian President provide some sort of a pathway to a resolution, and if, if issues are raised as to how Australia might support or assist in terms of the resolution, I’m sure those suggestions would be considered in good faith.
Cheralyn Darcey
So a lot of nations are talking about peacekeeping operations. Would a Coalition Government support a greater role for Australia in any peacekeeping operations?
Senator Scarr
I think we need to see what the request was before really providing any definitive answer. And I would note that obviously the European nations are best placed, simply through geographical proximity, to provide the maximum support in that space. And I think many of them are prepared to do so, as you’d expect, because this is something which is happening in the European neighborhood. So certainly my expectation, I think, would be in the first instance, it would be the Europeans, who parties would look to in the first instance to provide most of the support. But I’m sure the Australian Government and the Opposition would carefully consider any approach which was made with respect to how Australia can contribute in any way in terms of the peacekeeping and or the rebuilding process as well, because there’s going to be a great deal of rebuilding that’s required to be done because so many cities have been absolutely devastated.
Cheralyn Darcey
Senator, thank you so much for joining us tonight.
Senator Scarr
Excellent.
