Hi. I’m Tom McIlroy, Political Editor at Guardian Australia. We’re recording remotely this week, but our podcast is produced on the lands of the Gadigal people in Sydney and the Wurundjeri people in Melbourne. My guest today is The Shadow Minister for Immigration, Paul Scarr, helping lead a policy reset for the Opposition under Sussan Ley. Scarr has rejected rhetoric about claimed mass migration in Australia and is working to rebuild ties with multicultural communities.
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I don’t think we have a situation in Australia of mass migration, or mass immigration. When I think of mass migration, mass immigration, you’re thinking about huge geopolitical events like the partition of India, where you had mass movement of people from one geographical location to another. You think about the huge rates of immigration from Europe to the United States at various times in our history. So, I just don’t think it’s an appropriate use of that term.
Tom McIlroy
As tensions continue to rise over immigration, including fighting words from former front bencher Andrew Hastie, Scarr says the migration debate should be based on facts, and that politicians and activists seeking to inflame emotions are hurting Australia’s national interest. This is the Australian Politics Podcast.
Tom McIlroy
Paul Scarr, welcome to the Australian Politics Podcast.
Senator Scarr
Great to be with you, Tom, and great to be with your listeners.
Tom McIlroy
Tell me your assessment of the immigration policy debate in Australia and how you fit into it from the Coalition perspective.
Senator Scarr
This is a really important debate we’re having at the moment, and there’s no question that a lot of Australians are concerned with respect to the rate of immigration. There was a study done by the Scanlon Foundation, their mapping cohesion report, which found that 49% of Australians believe that the current rate of immigration is too high. So, there is a lot of concern about the issue. So it is in the national interest that we have a debate with respect to the rate of immigration at the moment, especially given pressure on housing, pressure on infrastructure and pressure on services, but at the same time Tom the way in which the debate is conducted is so important. This is a debate that needs to be conducted, but it must be conducted in a way that’s also in our national interest, and I think we’ve seen certain outbreaks of certain actions taken, pamphlets, material which has been disseminated before a number of marches, which has targeted particular parts of our community, and it’s caused a lot of distress in those communities. I know that because I move around Australia and I talk to people who are impacted. So, the debate needs to be had, but it needs to be considered, it needs to be measured, and it needs to be based on the facts and the evidence, and that’s what I’m trying to contribute to in terms of my contribution.
Tom McIlroy
I’ll come back to the Coalition in a moment. But what’s your assessment of Labor’s position? They took some time to announce this year’s figures, and they’ve been quite pointed in some of their commentary about the Coalition’s immigration policy formation process.
Senator Scarr
I am particularly disappointed that the Labor Party has enabled a vacuum to develop around the debate in relation to immigration and the reason I say that is when they released their figures, the permanent migration intake for the 2025-26 year, they released the media statement of three sentences, less than 100 words. There was absolutely no transparency with respect to how they came to the decision they came to, and there was no narrative. There was no narrative about the sorts of matters which they took into account in terms of shaping that immigration plan. At the same time, and Minister Burke has admitted this, they abandoned a multi-year planning approach. So, for a number of years, since the announcement of the immigration strategy, they’d said they’d committed to going to a multi-year planning approach and I think there’s a lot of benefit in terms of that approach, in terms of setting the figures for one year and then saying, what are the figures going to be on a nominal basis a few years ahead, two or three years ahead, and they abandoned that approach, and there doesn’t seem to be the long term planning, which I believe is necessary to give the Australian people confidence.
Tom McIlroy
Why is the politics of immigration roiling the Coalition so much and tell me about your thoughts on this phrase ‘mass migration’ which is getting quite a good workout in the debate more broadly.
Senator Scarr
Well, just in terms of the latter question, in terms of mass migration. I believe it’s a misnomer. I don’t think we have a situation in Australia of mass migration or mass immigration. When I think of mass migration or mass immigration, you’re thinking about huge geopolitical events like the partition of India, where you had mass movement of people from one geographical location to another. You think about the huge rates of immigration from Europe to the United States at various times in our history. So, I just don’t think it’s an appropriate use of that term. What Australia has is an issue at the moment, primarily with respect to housing supply, and the pressures that high rates of immigration place on housing supply, infrastructure and the provision of government services, and when you actually look at the figures in terms of immigration, one of the issues that’s arisen coming out of the covid period is departures haven’t occurred at the rate that they’re expected to occur, and there are a number of reasons for that, including visas were extended, including the fact that people have made claims for additional student visas, or they’ve made onshore protection claims, which people are entitled to do, and so departure rates haven’t been as high as are expected to be. So, I just don’t think it’s an appropriate use of the term ‘mass immigration’ in the Australian context, and I’ve publicly stated that, and I think it’s been important that I’ve said that.
Tom McIlroy
The Coalition’s internal politics, Sussan Ley, the Opposition Leader, has asked you to work on the immigration policy, and that was frustrating for your former front bench colleague, Andrew Hastie. He believed that he should have a role as the Shadow Home Affairs Minister and has as a result moved to backbench. What’s going on internally? Do you think there are people within the Coalition who want to have a tougher fight about this?
Senator Scarr
I can only state what my position is, and my position is that I recognize that immigration policy impacts nearly every single portfolio in the Shadow Cabinet. So, it impacts the finance related portfolios. It impacts agriculture in terms of workforce, aged care in terms of workforce. It impacts skills and training. It impacts the whole of foreign affairs in terms of treaty obligations, which we’ve entered into, and of course, the Shadow Immigration Minister needs to or a position spokesperson needs to work very closely with the Shadow Home Affairs Minister, and since his appointment, I’ve had discussions with Johnno Duniam, and I look forward to working very, very closely with him, and I think it’s really important in this portfolio to work closely with all the other Shadow Ministers and Shadow Cabinet and also with Senators and MPs on the back bench, who are all trying to represent the interests of their own local communities, many of which, especially in Regional Australia, have skill shortages. So, it’s important in this role to work very closely across the whole party, and that was my view when I took on this role, and it’s my view today.
Tom McIlroy
Are you concerned about the fallout of the Hastie resignation? I mean, people like him and Jacinta Nampijinpa Price in the Senate are certainly trying to stop the debate. Could that risk proper policy formation in the Coalition? Could it risk the cohesion that Sussan Ley is trying to encourage across the Opposition?
Senator Scarr
I congratulate Sussan on setting up the policy formulation processes which she established. The fact of the matter is that we got an absolute terrible result of the last federal election, so that was a signal to us that we had to put the work into policy formulation and make sure that everyone in our party room is involved in that policy formulation. So, I think that’s extraordinarily important. and from my perspective, in this position, I want to make sure that the debate, as far as I can influence it, is considered, measured, it’s based on facts and evidence, and that’s the approach I’ve taken from day one, and it’s the approach I will continue to take.
Tom McIlroy
There are other forces involved in this debate, including on your side of politics, obviously, more broadly, give me your reflection on the group Advance and how they’re contributing, and also people like the Former Prime Minister, Former Liberal Leader Tony Abbott. He has some interesting comments about multiculturalism and the challenge of integration of migrants into the Australian community.
Senator Scarr
Well, I would just leave Advance to their own devices. They don’t consult me with respect to the approach they take, and from my perspective, it’s up to others to comment. In relation to multiculturalism generally, I’d just say that we have a long tradition in this country where governments are both persuasions and oppositions pf both persuasions have been strong supporters of multiculturalism, and I think it’s important, Tom in this debate, when we talk about multiculturalism, what are we actually talking about. From my perspective, the overarching principle is that we all are united under common Australian values, which means equality of every single Australian, everyone treated equally, regardless of their ethnic origin, regardless of their race, their religion, their gender – everyone is treated equally. We support our democratic values, and we respect rule of law. Those are foundational values of Australia, and from my perspective, which is the overarching principle. Then when we go further down into what we mean about multiculturalism, to me, it means that no Australian is discriminated against. So, in terms of seeking to advance themselves through their professions, in the community, accessing services, everyone is treated equally. The second principle is, we need to have policies that remove barriers that stop people from fulfilling their true potential. So, an example of that would be to make sure that new arrivals to our country have an opportunity to learn English in order to gain employment. They have an opportunity to have their skills recognized in order to make sure they’re employed at an appropriate level. So, those are examples of that. The third element is we celebrate different festivals and cultural activities. So, this month, I’m attending a lot of Diwali events with our wonderful Indian community, and that’s an example of the generosity of spirit different communities have to share their cultural festivities, religious festivities, with the broader community. So, that’s what multiculturalism means to me. I think quite often when people engage in the debate and are critical of multiculturalism, they don’t really define what they mean, but when you see it as something which is occurring under that umbrella, that overarching principle of shared values, then I think the arguments tend to fall away.
Tom McIlroy
Fast forward 5 or 10 years on the question of multiculturalism in Australian Society. Do you think it will be stronger, or do you think that some of the threats to cohesion could win out in what’s going on?
Senator Scarr
I really do hope it’s stronger. I hope that we come through this difficult period in a stronger position, and I mean that very sincerely, and I say that on the basis of talking to people in different multicultural communities across the country and the concern that they’ve raised in recent times, with respect to, for example, those pamphlets that were circulated, which targeted the Indian community and caused a lot of distress in that community. So, I genuinely hope we can all come together through this period and support each other, support people in our multicultural communities. That’s my hope, that’s my aspiration, and that’s why I work very hard every day to try and achieve. I’m in Melbourne. I attended yesterday an event with the wonderful Australian Vietnamese Women’s Association. It’s the 50th anniversary of Vietnamese settlement in Australia, and it was a wonderful event. A group of 15 Australians of Vietnamese heritage came together way back in 1983 and set up this wonderful organisation, which now has nearly 500 employees and provides services to people all across Melbourne. Today, I met with members of the Hazara community, who built very successful businesses in Dandenong and saw the positive impact they’ve had on in that area. Tonight, I attended the establishment of the Australian Lebanese Business Council. Again, we reflect on the contribution that’s been made by the Lebanese community over so many years, decades and decades, and so there’s so many successful stories to tell, and I think we’ve got to tell those stories. We’ve got to tell those successful stories and rebut the negative narrative that’s coming from some quarters.
Tom McIlroy
Is that policy process, that community process that you describe, as one of the fortunate effects for the Coalition that it could be good in reconnecting with communities who’ve moved away from you in the last couple of elections and probably cost the Coalition significant seats.
Senator Scarr
Well, I think that the community engagement is just so important. It’s absolutely vital. I spoke to someone today from a particular community who after we’d had a long discussion, it’s someone I’ve given assistance to over some time, and she told me how her views had changed with respect to the Coalition. It just shows, once you have that engagement, once you actually demonstrate the values of the Liberal Party, in action, and what we really believe in as Liberals, and the foundational principle is an equality of all people, regardless of ethnic origin and race and gender, religion, everyone needs to be treated equally. Once you actually have that engagement, then people’s previous misconceptions fall away, and that is the power of engagement, and something which I’m quite passionate about.
Tom McIlroy
Okay, Paul Scarr, you’ve got a big, demanding job, and it’s an interesting time in Federal Politics, across the board. We have a tradition on the Pod of asking people about their life outside Politics. Tell me about how you wind down or relax with your family when you’ve got a free moment or a day off.
Senator Scarr
I’m a big reader, and the more difficult the circumstances I might be in, the more I read. So, if you see me in my free time, typically, I’ll be reading some weighty tone on history, or in terms of fiction, it’s got to be historical fiction from my perspective. So, that’s something which I’m very passionate about, and which brings me a lot of joy. The other thing I do, I’m an incurable collector, which drives my beautiful wife nuts, because I’m continually looking to buy different sorts of antique items in different areas, like Japanese pottery is an example. So, that’s something which I also indulge myself in.
Tom McIlroy
I think it’s a first for Japanese pottery on the podcast. Paul Scarr, it’s been great to have you.
Senator Scarr
People should look up to a fellow called Yabu Meizan. He was the Master of Japanese Satsuma Pottery.
Tom McIlroy
Thanks again for joining us.
Senator Scarr
Thanks Tom.
