We’re meeting with representatives of the Indian Australian community, and given the issues we’ve had over the last few weeks, it’s important we sit down and talk to senior members of the community and have an open discussion. So we’ll be doing that today. Sussan Ley, the Opposition Leader, is in town to do that, and we’re looking forward to a really constructive discussion. And we need to make it clear, and I think all your listeners would agree with this, that the issues in relation to immigration relate to numbers and the ability of Australia through its infrastructure, its services, its capacity in relation to immigration numbers. So this is a government policy issue in relation to the government setting the immigration program, and we need to emphasize that to all members of the community across Australia, because this is everyone’s problem. This is everyone’s issue across Australia, right? It doesn’t matter where you come from, whatever your country of origin is, everyone is facing the same issues. So we need to just underline that.
Tim Webster
So we’ve got this figure of 185,000 permanent but we know, you know, with the influx, it’s more like half a million. Is there an acceptable figure? Let me put to you that way.
Senator Scarr
Tim in the last budget before the Coalition lost office in 2022, our number was 160,000. Peter Dutton then took to the last election. The Coalition took to the last election, given the housing pressures, a policy of 140,000 for the first two years and then recalibrating up to that 160,000 figure. So that’s the permanent immigration intake. If you look at the 15 years before the covid pandemic, the average net overseas migration was 216,000. That’s the average in the 15 years before the covid pandemic. So then you compare those numbers in the Labor Party’s first budget after it got elected in 2022, it estimated net overseas migration of 235,000 in 22-23. And 235,000 in 23-24. The numbers, the actual results were 528,000 and 446,000. So more than double of their forecasts. And this is the issue Tim. We need to have long term planning. The government’s own strategic review, which was released in March 2023 talked about the need for long term planning, and then last week, we saw this permanent immigration intake. It was released two months after the start of the financial year, two months after the start of the year, it was three sentences, and there was no discussion in terms of the long term planning, and I think that’s what we need, that’s what we need in this debate in order to move on to talk about what is the long term plan, how does it dovetail with the capacity constraints in relation to housing, infrastructure, services. And this is a debate which has to be conducted in a considered manner.
Tim Webster
Okay, the risk of being a shock jock shouting at a cloud. What’s wrong with the idea that I’ve been put forward. Just pause it for six months, 12 months, and at the end of that 12 months, say, well, okay, we now think this is a more responsible figure until we catch up with housing and infrastructure and all the other things we know we’ve got a problem with.
Senator Scarr
So when we talk about the permanent migration intake, it’s got a number of components. So for example, one of the components is family reunions. So people meet someone overseas, they’re living overseas, fall in love, get married, and they want to move home to Australia,. So you’ve got that component in terms of family reunion. And as you can understand, families when they want to come back to Australia, and they want their loved ones to come with them. So you’ve got that component. You’ve also got the skills component. And as we’ve spoken about previously, we’ve got shortages of carpenters, electricians, plumbers, etc, who are desperately needed to fix the housing supply crisis, because we don’t have enough of those skills here. We also have a difference between the position in major metropolitan cities and our regional communities. So I’ve met with, for example, Clubs Australia, who tell me they would have to close some of the restaurants they have in regional areas, if they couldn’t bring chefs in from overseas, because they can’t find the chefs locally to fill those positions. And there’s a lot of jobs which are dependent, in terms of wait staff and other staff upon those chefs being available in those regional areas. It is really complicated, and that’s why it’s so important we have a long term plan that takes into account all of these moving pieces.
Tim Webster
Yeah, indeed. And look, let’s just not make it about one cohort or other. Because it’s really not about that.
Senator Scarr
No, absolutely. Tim, absolutely, and I couldn’t agree more.
Tim Webster
To Aged Care, if I could turn to that. There’s so many things I could discuss with you. It deeply troubles me that, and it look it sounds like an awful thing to say, but it happens. I mean, elderly people do pass away waiting for one of these packages. Now the Government delayed packages. Now they’ve brought them back, but there’s still over 100,000 elderly people waiting to get a package to be able to stay at home, Paul, which for them, is very important.
Senator Scarr
Well, it’s very important for them. Tim, and also, everyone’s had experience in terms of trying to assist loved ones geting care in an age home. I’ve had to do that very recently, and it’s very difficult, and we’ve got limited places in aged care as well. So there’s pressures on that part of the equation as well. So to the extent that our loved ones have the ability or opportunity to stay at home close to their families and in the environment they know and love and have the support to do that. I think that’s really important. So last week, because of pressure from the Senate, because of pressure from the Senate, which is such an important check and balance in our parliamentary system, an extra 20,000 Home Care Age Packages were released as a matter of urgency. There’s going to be another 20,000 released, and then another 60 to 80,000 released up to 30, June 2026, but there’s a queue of about 100,000 people waiting for these packages. And I get contacted. My office gets contacted all the time by people who are seeking one of these packages, and there’s such a long queue, there’s nothing you can do. The queue is the queue. So I think this is a really important issue, and we have to look at ways in which we can make sure our older Australians, our loved ones, those who’ve given so much to this country, they built the country, they built the country we’re living in, Tim and we’ve got to make sure they get the support which they deserve. I think it’s a moral obligation.
Tim Webster
Couldn’t agree with you more! Not very often you get support from the Greens either.
Senator Scarr
Well, that’s right, Well, it shows how far off track Labor was.
Tim Webster
When you’re talking about 100,000 Australians on that wait list and many dying before they receive care. I mean, is there again this is another complicated area, isn’t it? Is there a way to reform that system to make that go faster? I mean, at the moment. Is that 100,000 or 120,000 going to become 150 than 180 then 200 while they wait?
Senator Scarr
That’s the concern, isn’t it, and that’s where the obligations on our elected representatives, including myself, to be watching that wait list and making sure it trends down. And this is also where we need to be cognizant of the fact that when government’s delivering anything, you’ve got bureaucracy. Sometimes it’s really necessary to make sure that the money is being spent the right way, because it’s taxpayer money, but sometimes it adds complication to that system. So coming back to when I was assisting my mum to get into aged care, the system is so complicated. Tim. The system is so complicated. I was shocked, actually, how complicated the system is.
Tim Webster
Well, you know, my mum passed away some time ago with with Alzheimer’s, and she was 81. We were very fortunate we got her into the Gertrude Abbott at Darlinghurst, because Mum was a Catholic, and they were lovely. It was lovely in there. But, I mean, sometimes you think to yourself, you just want, as you just said, older Australians, to be looked after. You don’t want them to be worried about what sort of food they’re going to eat, where they’re going to live. I mean, any civilized society needs to look after its own.
Senator Scarr
Oh, absolutely. And you want them to enjoy to the extent possible, that precious time, so they can have visitors and activities and be looked after and have that piece of mind.
Tim Webster
You bet! I could talk to you for a while, but you got a round table to go to, and I’ve got a show to do. But one more thing, correct me if I’m I’m wrong. Are we not just exporting our problem to Nauru by sending these badly behaved detainees there, and it costing us a bomb, because it’s not just a one off payment. Are we paying them for 20 years?
Senator Scarr
30 years, 30 years, 30 years. So we found out last week through questions the Coalition asked in Senate committee, again the importance of the Senate. We’re looking at over 2 billion dollars over a period of 30 years. So we’re in this awful position where we’ve got this cohort of over 300 convicted criminals, other people of bad character, they can’t be deported to their countries of origin because of issues in relation to those countries. So the only answer is to either A, keep the people here, or B, find a third country that’s prepared to take them. And that’s the arrangement that’s been entered into with Nauru. At this stage. I think it’s in relation to three people, but you’ll expect that that number to increase. And that’s the decision the Nauruan Government made. The negotiation between the Australian Government and the Nauruan Government and that’s the arrangement that was made.
Tim Webster
I can understand them doing that, but we should add, though, there’s no guarantee that Nauru is going to take them all.
Senator Scarr
Well, it’s a good point, you’re right, and there are a lot of questions around this arrangement, Tim. There’s a lot of questions. We don’t have all the details. And as I said, we only found out about the true costs late last week. So there are a lot of questions. And a point I’ve raised with you in the past, Tim is we introduced legislation nearly two years ago now, which provided the government opportunities to make applications to court to put some of these members of this cohort into detention, preventative detention, because they’re hardened criminals, and the government hasn’t made a single application to court in relation to those powers, not a single application. I find that really hard to understand. They say it’s hard to get the evidence, but don’t you make an application and actually test the case in the court?
Tim Webster
I would have thought so. Lovely to talk to you. We’re having Canberra Conversations in Sydney.
Senator Scarr
I’m glad I brought the Queensland weather down with me. 29 degrees.
Tim Webster
You Queenslanders just never miss an opportunity.
Senator Scarr
Well, enjoy the Queensland day!
Tim Webster
Thank you. We love him and chat to him. The Shadow Minister for Immigration, Paul Scarr.
