The Opposition yesterday released a statement, part of which I read on air on the establishment of a task force on anti semitism, extremism and counter terrorism, and basically, they want all the recommendations from the government appointed special envoy for anti semitism to be applied immediately. The Shadow Minister for Immigration, Citizenship and Multicultural Affairs is Paul Scarr. He issued the statement, and he’s on the line. Thanks for joining us, Paul.
Senator Scarr
Good to be with you, Bill, and good to be with your listeners.
Bill Woods
Before I get on the events of today, and apparently as Terry Barnes outlined, Anthony Albanese has made some moves towards what we’ve been asking for in the last few days, but before that, I want to ask you, look, there’s been a lot of talk about politicizing what happened at Bondi. There’s been a lot of talk, and I’ve even discussed, how do we approach the problems that need to be solved delicately, with respect to the victims and all those affected by this. As a Politician whose portfolio really is in this vicinity, how difficult is it for you to find the right and appropriate things to say, when to say them and how to fulfill your duties as a public representative, to grieve and mourn along with everyone else?
Senator Scarr
Bill, it’s a good question. I really don’t see it through that prism of it sort of being about me in any way. I was deeply moved, as I’m sure all your listeners have been, in terms of what we’ve seen since those horrific events on Sunday, and I went to Bondi on Tuesday, flew down from Queensland to pay my respects, and I spoke to quite a number of members of the Jewish community who came up to me, and from my perspective, I take my guide from them, I take my lead from them, and they are grieving, and the grief is palpable. It’s so strong, and they want action. They want action, and there is a lot of anger that the Jewish community had been calling for action for over two years, and not enough action was taken. So, from my perspective, I wouldn’t be discharging my obligations as a member of parliament if I didn’t call for action, and if I didn’t do that now, because that’s what the Jewish community is calling for.
Bill Woods
We read part of that news release last night, but of course, since then, in between then and us talking to you now, the Prime Minister has acknowledged today in a news conference, there was much more the country had to do, and for the first time since Sunday, he made a point of saying he felt angry about the terrorist attack. He stopped short of apologizing. At times, he spoke a little bit vaguely about what they were going to do, but he did say, and I quote, governments aren’t perfect. I’m not perfect. I’ve done my best to respond. Anyone in this position would regret not doing more and any inadequacies. I of course, acknowledged that more could have been done, and I accept my responsibility for my part in that as Prime Minister of Australia. Well, I guess in part, due to your press release yesterday and the Federal Opposition’s extraordinarily strong words, is he moving in the right direction?
Senator Scarr
We’re doing everything we can to push him to move in the right direction, but also, he needs to move further. He needs to do more. Parliament should be recalled. We’ve called for Parliament to be recalled. So, whatever can be done urgently can be done, and we’ve also called for a whole range of additional steps. So, this afternoon, Sussan Ley, with Julian Lesser, Johnno Duniam who is my Opposition Cabinet Minister with responsibility for Home Affairs, and also Andrew Wallace, who is the Shadow Attorney General, put out an action plan, which calls for a number of steps which go much further than what the Prime Minister called for today, and from our perspective, we have got to recall Parliament, and we got to start implementing those steps across a range of different portfolios, because that’s what the special envoy to combat anti semitism called for, it called for a whole raft of changes, and we need to start implementing those now. Mid July, Bill – mid July, she delivered her report to the Labor Government, and it’s only today. It’s only today that the Prime Minister came out and said the report was going to be implemented in full.
Bill Woods
Jillian Segal, when you think about it now, since July, has been placed in an awkward position, especially considering what happened on Sunday. Has anyone in the Opposition had much time to speak with her?
Senator Scarr
There have been discussions between the Opposition Leader and Jillian Segal, who took on this very onerous task when she was asked to do it. She’s an outstanding Australian. She had an extremely successful career before undertaking this task, and she’s put her heart and soul into it. So, certainly, senior members of the Opposition have been consulting with her, and we want to do everything we can to get those forty-nine recommendations implemented as soon as possible. In the Immigration space, there are three actions she called for. The first is for vetting of visa applicants for any Semitic rhetoric or extremist behavior, so before they even get their student visa, their temporary resident visa, provisional visa, that that vetting occurs., and secondly, to boost the powers in the Migration Act, to make it easier to cancel someone’s visa in the event that they engage in unacceptable conduct, like antisemitic rhetoric, and thirdly, to make sure that the staff in the Department of Home Affairs have the appropriate training to recognize the warning signs.
Bill Woods
Now we had a call from Shane, who was a very emotional bloke, and with good reason. He was upset and concerned about how Mike Burgess has dealt with this, but there are a few branches of our national intelligence gathering and security, of course, right down to state police. Have you had much to do with them, Paul? I mean, obviously, notwithstanding Jillian Segal recommendations, have you had a chance to ask the various levels of policing and intelligence gathering whether they are under resourced?
Senator Scarr
I have the benefit serving in the Senate, of going through the estimates process each six months or so, where the different agencies, including the Australian Federal Police and ASIO appear before us, and typically we ask them about resourcing. They’re in a difficult position, so they’re public servants, so they must be even handed and careful when they’re giving responses, but they always do their best to give us the facts. What was really disturbing Bill, I think, was the report we received that in May 2024, there was a whistleblower from the AFP who raised the fact that concerns had been raised by the AFP that they didn’t have enough resourcing in order to maintain their terrorist watch list to the degree they’d like to, so that’s the list where they’re tracking different people who maybe they’ve got concerns about. That’s really concerning. It’s also concerning that ASIO has had to deal with such an increase in foreign interference from different players around the globe, and that, of course, takes away resources. So, I think we’ve got to make sure that the people in the AFP, the people in ASIO, the people in our state police agencies, have the resources they need. They’re good people. They’re putting their lives on the line for us every day, and we saw that on Sunday. We’ve got to make sure they’ve got the right tools and resources to do their job to keep us safe.
Bill Woods
I’m sure Richard, who called us last night, who’s had some experience in the FEDS, did refer to that whistleblower, I think, and he was terribly upset too, that hadn’t appeared to have been acted sufficiently. Is it about dollars? You just stated a couple of especially important things that I think that no one can argue with, but do we need to also reassess our attitude and priorities in where we spend those resources?
Senator Scarr
It’s also about strengthening the laws to make sure, especially in this digital age where the technology is changing all the time, that our laws keep up with that, so that ASIO and the AFP and other security agencies can actually engage in the electronic surveillance they need to engage in. I’ve heard Mike Burgess, the Director General of ASIO, raise some concerns in that regard, in terms of some of these apps these people try and coordinate their activities through, which try to be secret. There are certainly ways in which I think we can improve the laws to make it easier for them to keep surveillance on some of these people who they’re watching.
Bill Woods
Sorry to interrupt Paul, but just on that very point, there’s some similarities there, as they’re not with organized crime and how they communicate, and indeed, organized crime has been by proxy, involved in that dastardly Iranian scheme not that long ago. So, there are all kinds of different actors involved here, and I guess sharing intelligence between the various departments, including the organized crime investigators, is also important.
Senator Scarr
I think that’s crucial, and I think it’s crucial in terms of our Immigration Policy too. So, in terms of our Department of Home Affairs liaising with other immigration departments, Home Affairs Departments around the world, when we’re getting people to see if it’s appropriate that we should let them into our country, and every person who we can stop at our border from coming in with that hatred in their hearts is a good thing, right? So, we’re going to do everything we can to stop that at the border.
Bill Woods
We’re talking to Paul Scarr, and we’ll be right back after this, Paul, if you don’t mind, stay on the line. We need to take a crucial break. I’ll get to the text line after that, and you can answer a couple of questions there.
[COMMERCIAL BREAK]
Bill Woods
Paul Scarr, thank you for joining us tonight and staying on through the commercial break. Marcus is taking you to task. He says, I think it’s important that people understand that many of the forty-nine recommendations of the Segal report have already been implemented. Is that true?
Senator Scarr
There’s a hell of a lot that haven’t been, and in terms of those immigration issues I raised before, actually substantially beefing up the Migration Act to make sure that we can better facilitate the removal and cancelation of visas of people who come to this country and engage in antisemitic conduct, is one of the first on my list, and in fact, Tony Burke today admitted that there had to be amendments to the Migration Act to assist in that regard. So, that’s just one example. I’ll give. Another example I can give, and this is something the Coalition called for today, is to put funding triggers in the legislation that governs funding for our tertiary institutions, our universities, but also in relation to research grants and arts funding, to make sure that none of that funding can go to any activities which are in any way associated with anti semitism. So, that’s another area of recommendation that needs action, and the Coalition is calling for that action today.
Bill Woods
Interesting one from Greg, which I know the answer to, and I don’t know how we sort this, but he says I’d like to know how a 24-year-old born in Australia ends up with an Indian Passport. Obviously, he got one to avoid detection. Somebody must have helped him, and that makes me skeptical that the two acted alone. Well, Greg, he got the Indian Passport because his Dad was technically Indian, and for the same reason, a lot of Aussies have British Passports or Passports from other countries for the same reason. I don’t know what you can do about it.
Senator Scarr
The father was an Indian Citizen, as I understand it was an Australian Permanent Resident. My son was born here. So, he was an Australian Citizen, and just on that citizenship point, one of the proposals which we’re putting forward today, and we’ll be drafting legislation to put this into effect, is to stiffen up the processes by which an application can be made to remove Australian Citizenship from someone who’s a dual citizen. So, in one of those situations where someone a citizen of Australia, but also a citizen of another country, where they engage in this sort of hateful antisemitic rhetoric. So, even before you get to an event like Sunday, we’ve got the ability to strip them of their Australian Citizenship and remove them from the country. So, that is one area which we can also beef up in the citizenship space.
Bill Woods
Paul, we’ve had several texts along these lines, and I’ll read Mike’s out and all those people who texted similarly earlier. I hope you’re still around to hear your voice. He says the elephant in the room is the ALP and Liberal Politicians refuse to see the fundamentalist Muslim preachers preaching hatred of Israel. In fact, all non-Muslim infidels in mosques all over Australia. We won’t be safe from Islamic terrorism until those hate peddlers are locked up or sent back to where they came from. Now, look, we hear a lot about this. There are some very notable examples. There was an Imam today, who was quoted in the media. He was happy to speak to the media and say that he’s entitled to those comments due to our free speech laws. So, some are being very stoic about it. The big question is, and the concern from a lot of our texts, is how many of them are there, and are they really that dangerous?
Senator Scarr
The Australian Federal Police have told us that they’re investigating a number of these hate preachers, and these are people who literally preach hate, and that includes to young people, and from my perspective, anyone who’s preaching that evil, extreme Islamic state ideology which led to the establishment of that Islamic State in parts of Syria and Iraq, and we saw the devastating consequences of that upon the people of that region. Anyone preaching that twisted, evil ideology has no place in Australia., and if they’re on visas, those visas should be canceled, and they should be removed from Australia as soon as possible. End of story. If they are Australian Citizens, then our laws should be strong enough to make sure that they’re held accountable, when they preach that sort of evil, extreme Islamic state ideology. There is no place for it in Australia.
Bill Woods
Now there’s a text with no name that’s just came through, and I’m sorry I’ve only got two minutes left, so we’ll try and get this answered quickly. it says that India does not allow dual citizens. Now, I’ve looked up very quickly, and from what I’ve gathered, that text is correct. India does not allow dual citizenship. So, it begs the question that the other accused, and we have to say alleged now, the shooter, how did he become a dual citizen? If that were the case. How did he get the Indian Passport? So, that’s going to have to be part of the investigation as well.
Senator Scarr
I think there’s a whole range of things that need to be really investigated very closely. We’re talking about the father with his gun license. He had six guns. He’s a non-citizen. That raises questions, so there’s a whole range of questions like that. But it’s a good point that was made.
Bill Woods
Thank you for clarifying that. I was certainly not aware that India did not allow dual citizenship, because a lot of countries do. Quite a few people in this country hold more than one passport. Paul, there’s a lot of other stuff we can get through, but I’m very grateful that you said you’ll join us in a couple of weeks’ time in between Chrissy and New Year, but in the meantime, have a Merry Christmas mate to you and your family, and thank you very much for joining us tonight.
Senator Scarr
Yeah, Bill and I think it’s a really important time for us to all remember the true meaning of Christmas and spend that time with our loved ones. I think the events of the last week have really underlined that. So, Merry Christmas to you and your listeners.
