During her National Press Club address, Senator Pauline Hanson recalled her attempt in the Senate to secure a plebiscite — a national vote on immigration numbers. She referred to a comment made by Coalition Senator Paul Scarr, who was previously the Shadow Minister for Immigration, and who she says argued the issue was too complex to put to the Australian people.
“Two years ago, I tried to secure a national plebiscite on immigration numbers, as usual. Most of the Senate dismissed the notion of giving Australians a direct say on policy and voted it down during the debate. I distinctly remember Coalition Senator Paul Scarr saying, ‘Well, the issue was too complex to put to the Australian people.’
That disgusting comment says all you need to know about the political establishment’s contempt for the Australian people — contempt for their intelligence and contempt for the very concept of actually listening to them.”
The man named by Pauline Hanson joins me now. Senator Paul Scarr, welcome.
SENATOR SCARR:
Hello, PK. Good to be with you.
HOST:
You made a bit of an appearance in that speech. Senator Pauline Hanson singled you out. She says that you effectively talked down to voters when you argued that this should not go to a plebiscite. Were you talking down to voters?
SENATOR SCARR:
Absolutely not. What I was doing was emphasizing the fact that the immigration issue is a very complicated one. Issues relating to immigration impact different cohorts of migrants. You have family reunion, you have our New Zealand brothers and sisters who have rights to come across the Tasman to Australia, you have skilled migration, and our humanitarian intake.
You’ve got different concerns in regional areas compared to urban areas. So it is a complicated issue, and I think we need to be on guard against those who are calling for simplistic solutions — the siren call of simplistic solutions — which, in my view, won’t be in our national interest.
HOST:
Pauline Hanson says the reason she’s gaining popularity — she has said this previously, not today — is essentially because of moderates like you, Paul Scarr, that the Liberal Party isn’t going hard enough on these issues. She suggests people like you are, in her terms, “bleeding hearts.” What do you say to that critique?
SENATOR SCARR:
Well, I say in good faith that I’m seeking to discharge my responsibilities to the Australian people in our national interest. Consistently, when I had the honour of holding the portfolio, I spoke about the fact that immigration numbers were approximately 100,000 above the long-term average — and above what many experts say should be an appropriate range.
I consistently made those points and consistently recognised the pressures on housing and infrastructure. At the same time, I called for — and I continue to call for — the debate to be conducted in a measured and considered fashion. I think that is so important.
HOST:
Well, you say “measured.” Pauline Hanson today says Australia must be monocultural. She complained about Mandarin and Arabic being spoken in homes. What do you say to that?
SENATOR SCARR:
Well, I disagree with Senator Hanson — I respectfully disagree — and I say to her: consider what multiculturalism means. There’s a lot of talk about multiculturalism, and I think sometimes the critics of multiculturalism aren’t actually defining what it means as we understand it in the political system.
The first point to note is that everyone in Australia is subject to Australian laws and Australian values. Then we consider ways in which to ensure that people can come to this country from all over the world, regardless of their ethnicity, race, or background — unified under those common Australian values.
We then look at ways in which we can empower those people. That includes empowering communities, especially those from refugee backgrounds, to learn English and working out the best ways in which we can assist them to make the best contribution to Australia.
It includes things like skills recognition. We have something like over 300,000 people in the Australian community with skills who are working below their skill level. So how do we recognise those skills and uplift those people to make the best contribution to Australia?
We should be looking at solutions that bring Australians together, not drive Australians apart.
HOST:
Today we heard a different vision on multiculturalism from Pauline Hanson. Your party looks like it’s in a big battle with her. How do you think your party needs to take on some of this rhetoric?
SENATOR SCARR:
Well, we just need to continue putting forward considered and measured policies to address the issues and demonstrate to the Australian people that we’ve heard their concerns with respect to a whole raft of issues, including the rate of immigration and also cost-of-living pressures.
We’re moving forward proactively to address those issues, but we have to be a party for all Australians.
I also noted that Pauline Hanson called for the abolition of SBS. Can I say that Senator Hanson should, in fact, be watching SBS, not calling for its abolition. If she was watching SBS, she would have seen the Socceroos’ wonderful victory over Türkiye — a team that represents modern Australia, with players from all over the world coming together, representing Australia, and doing such a fine job.
HOST:
You spoke to me for a piece I wrote about a week ago, and you haven’t spoken on camera about it. I’d really like you to expand on it. You’re speaking to lots of different migrant communities still — even though you’re no longer the shadow immigration spokesperson, you’re still a member of the Liberal Party and a senator. What have they been telling you? You said they’re feeling scared.
SENATOR SCARR:
A lot of these communities are feeling very, very vulnerable. Over the last 12 months — including events I’ve attended over the past few weeks — I’ve seen their leaders address their communities and the wider public who come to support their festivals and events, saying that they need to be strong and continue to believe in Australia as a multicultural community.
They’re having to reassure their communities, and I find that really sad. I find it especially sad because I’m so close to so many members of these communities, and they work 24/7 to make this a better country every single day.
They’re putting their heart and soul into helping members of the community and reaching out to others to make a better Australia. It saddens me that many members of our multicultural communities are being forced into a position where they feel they have to defend themselves.
HOST:
Do you think taking a harder rhetorical line within your own party on immigration — beyond just numbers, but on culture and multiculturalism — is the way to win back voters defecting to One Nation?
SENATOR SCARR:
Well, I think there’s a broader issue in terms of immigration, and that is the need for much better long-term planning — medium-term planning — and explaining that planning to the Australian people.
We need to bring people on the journey and earn that social licence for our immigration policy. I don’t want us to be having this same debate in 10 or 15 years’ time. I want us to address these issues today and come up with sustainable solutions so that our immigration policy has that social licence.
HOST:
You mentioned the defunding of SBS, and I think you’re a “Friend of SBS” in Parliament — you’re a co-chair, is that right?
SENATOR SCARR:
Absolutely. I’m a proud co-chair of the Friends of SBS, and SBS is doing such a wonderful job with its World Cup broadcasting. It’s a national treasure.
For 50 — now 51 — years, it has been delivering for all of the community and bringing people together. That’s the Australia I believe in.
HOST:
Pauline Hanson also talked about the ABC becoming a subscription service. Is that a good idea?
SENATOR SCARR:
Well, I’d subscribe for your program, PK.
HOST:
Would you pay for it?
SENATOR SCARR:
Well, you already pay for it through your taxes. And look, I think the ABC does a wonderful job in our regions and rural areas, and also here in my home state of Queensland.
National affairs programs like yours, along with Radio National, are an important part of the debate we have in our community.
HOST:
Paul Scarr, it’s always good to speak to you. We’ll see how these debates transpire — there’s clearly a lot more discussion to come. Thanks for joining me.
